Bailout Bill Just Failed in the House...

[amy07]

Thanks for the compliments, but it is not about me or my family. It's about a mindset that has been forgotten/neglected/ignored in our culture.
Or should I say it has been replaced with instant gratification and the attitude of "I deserve it".

This whole financial mess may be a blessing in disguise to a large percentage of our population! Nothing like hitting bottom to put priorities in order. And for those that are already a "true" cash only family, I admire you. I live by my debit card. thankfully it is not credit.

 

[Kitchen Diva]

Again, it seriously depends where you live. What's "reasonable" in one place is not "practical" in another. Back where I grew up in the Fox Cities, you could get a gorgeous home for $89,000 if you wanted. Here where I live now, you can get a mobile home or a saltbox house (if you're lucky.) Granted income is a bit higher here, but not when you have government jobs where the income is the same state-wide. Our money just doesn't go as far here. To say we feel "entitled" to a large home is ridiculous, but we do feel entitled to A home. We live in a 2-bedroom condo, and had to borrow money to meet the downpayment and have a WHEDA loan to help us with the interest rates. We were lucky that way; not everyone is.

As a former Mortgage Consultant...that's not luck- that's risk. You took a risk to buy something you could not afford without borrowing or utilizing Wisconsin's Housing and Economic Development loans/programs. That is something that drove me nuts while doing mortgages- it IS an entitlement issue. If you need help with lower interest rates and you need to borrow money to make a down payment- then you need to rent until you can afford to buy.

Yes, renting stinks. I didn't buy my first house until I was 29 years old. My husband was 38 at the time- it was his first home, too. We rented for a LONG time- Had I not been married, I would not have been able to buy. I would have had to continue to save for a home while I rented.

It's also against policy (and against underwriting policies as well) in almost every loan program to borrow money for a down payment- Unless there was a gift of equity or a non-arms length transaction involved, which may have been what you guys did in your situation. Granted, if you didn't tell your lender you were borrowing, or they explained a way to get around that issue, well- that's between you and your unethical loan officer. You even sign a form at closing saying that none of the down payment is borrowed (unless it's a non-arms length transaction, or a gift of equity was used towards that)

What used to just drive me bonkers was the sense of entitlement of the younger generation that would come to me for a loan approval. They felt that they deserved a house. For the most part, these were people with terrible credit scores, no credit scores, or an income that would afford them a house in the $60K-$80K range- which isn't feasible in the Twin Cities.

Once I'd do the numbers and pull credit and tell them what they could afford- they'd go bonkers on me... some would even tell me I was discriminating against them. I would even take the time to explain their debt to income, and if they wanted a $200K house, this is the income they'd need. Most people would come to me with a house in mind, and the monthly payment exceeded their monthly income!

No one is entitled to a home- it's something you earn and work towards.

I had an sweet black girl come in for loan approval one day, she came in with her father. I did the numbers, pulled her credit...and there was no way around it. She could only afford about $500.00 per month for a mortgage payment. Her father was so upset with me. Saying that I was holding his daughter back and discriminating. He wanted me to add his income to the formula to increase her buying power. I asked him if he was going to either co-sign or help with her payments. He said no. I said, sir...if I add your income to the mix, she can now afford a $1000.00 per month mortgage, but with no way to pay for $500.00 of it each month. He STILL wanted me to approve her.

I sent them away, angry and upset. (thankfully the law and the numbers were on my side) I got a call from her father a couple of weeks later, that a mortgage broker (who I knew to be unethical) approved his daughter for a rather large mortgage loan- and she was buying a house... I begged him to reconsider, as it would be her financial ruin. He would hear nothing of it. And said he was filing a complaint against me for discrimination.

His daughter lost that house within 9 months...she never even made one payment- because she could not afford it. Her father is now suing that broker for approving his daughter for a loan she could not afford, and is also saying that he was trying to ruin her because she was black.

This was a case of someone that KNEW going into it, that she could not afford a home- yet she and her father wanted her to have one so bad- because the government had special programs out there (for which she did not qualify), and they went ahead and made the decision to go forward...they took a risk. I would not say that in her case she had bad luck. I'd say in her case she was foolish and paid the consequences of her actions...

 

[Kitchen Diva]

I meant you were in luck that it was a seller's market. If you were trying to do the same thing right now, it wouldn't happen. Many people would like to be in your situation and be able to have homes that appreciated in value that they could sell for profit, but it won't happen for them for quite a while.

I'm not saying you and you hubby didnt' work hard for what you have; you clearly did and you definitely deserve it. I'm just saying that alot of people aren't able to be in your type of situation right now because of the current housing market. It's not that they deserve it any less, or didn't make the right decisions.

But not everyone is losing their homes, additionally my house was appraised (very incorrectly I might add) at $350K about 4 years ago- now it's valued at $200K... For starters, my home was never worth $350K- appraisers and lenders and homeowners got greedy during the big refinance boom of the early 2000's... secondly... I don't look at it as we've lost out... I look at it as we need to stay here a little longer in order to earn back some equity so we can get out ahead.

Real Estate is like any other investment- there is no guarantee on your return and you might lose it all...

 

[Kitchen Diva]

Thanks for the compliments, but it is not about me or my family. It's about a mindset that has been forgotten/neglected/ignored in our culture.
Or should I say it has been replaced with instant gratification and the attitude of "I deserve it".

This whole financial mess may be a blessing in disguise to a large percentage of our population! Nothing like hitting bottom to put priorities in order. And for those that are already a "true" cash only family, I admire you. I live by my debit card. thankfully it is not credit.

I agree with you. DH and I were trying to be without debt and cash only, but then he lost his job. I went back to work- and if he doesn't find a job within the next few months, he'll have to get as many jobs as it takes to make up the difference of what we need to make ends meet.

 

[ChefBeckyD]

Kacey, I am in awe of your knowledge, and ability to explain all that in understandable terms.

You are a smart cookie!

 

[Kitchen Diva]

Kacey, I am in awe of your knowledge, and ability to explain all that in understandable terms.

You are a smart cookie!

Awww, thanks- sweetie! It's because I've held every job but fast food and table dancing...well, that and I'm allergic to really big words.

 

[amy07]

But not everyone is losing their homes, additionally my house was appraised (very incorrectly I might add) at $350K about 4 years ago- now it's valued at $200K... For starters, my home was never worth $350K- appraisers and lenders and homeowners got greedy during the big refinance boom of the early 200's... secondly... I don't look at it as we've lost out... I look at it as we need to stay here a little longer in order to earn back some equity so we can get out ahead.

Real Estate is like any other investment- there is no guarantee on your return and you might lose it all...

EXACTLY!!
When we did sell our "old" house we had to refinance our NEW house mortgage to apply the proceeds of the sale. we had never even made a first payment on the new mortgage.
So, we had to have another appraisal for the new loan (re-fi). When the Appraiser came to do the inspection of our home, he asked me point blank how much we were wanting to get out of home!

 

[Kitchen Diva]

EXACTLY!!
When we did sell our "old" house we had to refinance our NEW house mortgage to apply the proceeds of the sale. we had never even made a first payment on the new mortgage.
So, we had to have another appraisal for the new loan (re-fi). When the Appraiser came to do the inspection of our home, he asked me point blank how much we were wanting to get out of home!

They aren't allowed to ask that anymore- some will...if they know they can get away with it. Most reputible lenders will not even ALLOW their loan officers to speak with the appraiser before the appraisal these days.

 

[Kitchen Diva]

While we are on the subject of what the government should do for us... I think they should ensure that everyone has a nice, new, shiny car! And I'm talking uber pricey car... I deserve a Jaguar... I think that I would make a Jag look really good, as I'm quite the smokin' hot babe... I've worked hard, never missed a payment on any of the cars I've owned, never missed a rent or mortgage payment- my annual income just went down by over 65%... I think due to that alone I deserve a fancy, shiny, new car, and the government should provide us with cars so we can all get to work each day.

Public transportation is beneath my paygrade...


(this is a satirical post, so please...don't skewer me for it)

 

[Kitchen Diva]

Additionally, the financial markets are just one SMALL (albeit important) part of our economy...everything else is doing fairly well... so when people focus only on the FINANCIAL aspect...they panick...especially if they are not educated about what all this means.

For President Bush to say that if we don't act and bail out unethical and greedy businesses that walked away with millions while the going was good... isn't accurate. There are several leading economists that feel we'll be just fine and the market will correct itself quickly...so there really isn't anyway to tell- and when our leaders say that the bailout is no guarantee- well then, I'm sorry...you can't have my share of the 700 billion you want to take and give to someone... You can loan it to them if you'd like...with interest and each American family that owns a home will get their interest dividends each month in the form of a check... that'll stimulate the economy!

 

[chefjeanine]

Here's What Dave Ramsey is saying about the bailout. . .We are at a crucial time in our country's financial history. Congress defeated the $700 billion bailout plan on Monday. However, they are revising it and trying to push it through again. I'm supporting an alternative plan that will keep our nation from going even deeper in debt, and I've been on TV and radio all week telling people about it.

We need everyone's help!


Follow the instructions below. Together we can change history.


Pray for them to resist a spirit of FEAR and to embrace WISDOM. Even if you don't like them or agree with them, pray for them and tell them you are praying for them. There is a spirit over this problem that must be broken. Also, most of the media personalities are afraid as well and that is affecting their reporting. Pray for fear to be removed from them; they are making this worse.


Send The Common Sense Fix to your Representatives and Senators and tell them how you expect them to vote, and that if they put this nation in $700 billion of debt, that you will vote them out. It's their job to listen to us! (Whichever presidential candidate or political party that champions this plan from their leadership down will likely become the next president. That is because this plan fixes the crisis while going along with the wishes of the vast majority of Americans.)

First, read this page http://www.daveramsey.com/media/pdf/the_common_sense_fix.pdf
Next, copy the info on this page http://www.daveramsey.com/common_sense_fix.txt
Send it to your Senators and representatives by copying and pasting the text in the web form you're sent to.
*Note: If their websites are down, that means we're making a difference! Keep refreshing the page until you get through. You can also go through Congress.org, though we don't endorse this site. You'll need to go to his site to access this part. . .it's down already.


Forward this email to everyone in your address book and tell them to urgently follow these 3 steps TODAY. The more people we have supporting this and contacting their elected leaders, the more likely we can turn our economy around!

 

[chefmeg]

Nobody is entitled to owning a home. Nobody.

Couldn't agree more....this is where the problem lies. Think back a few decades ago~most people did not have a mortgage, they rented. It was a big deal to say that you "owned" your own home. No one is entitled to anything but life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and you can bet that those holding mortgages with Fannie or Freddie are not happy now.

 

[Hathery]

[/B]

As a former Mortgage Consultant...that's not luck- that's risk. You took a risk to buy something you could not afford without borrowing or utilizing Wisconsin's Housing and Economic Development loans/programs. That is something that drove me nuts while doing mortgages- it IS an entitlement issue. If you need help with lower interest rates and you need to borrow money to make a down payment- then you need to rent until you can afford to buy.

Yes, renting stinks. I didn't buy my first house until I was 29 years old. My husband was 38 at the time- it was his first home, too. We rented for a LONG time- Had I not been married, I would not have been able to buy. I would have had to continue to save for a home while I rented.

It's also against policy (and against underwriting policies as well) in almost every loan program to borrow money for a down payment- Unless there was a gift of equity or a non-arms length transaction involved, which may have been what you guys did in your situation. Granted, if you didn't tell your lender you were borrowing, or they explained a way to get around that issue, well- that's between you and your unethical loan officer. You even sign a form at closing saying that none of the down payment is borrowed (unless it's a non-arms length transaction, or a gift of equity was used towards that)

What used to just drive me bonkers was the sense of entitlement of the younger generation that would come to me for a loan approval. They felt that they deserved a house. For the most part, these were people with terrible credit scores, no credit scores, or an income that would afford them a house in the $60K-$80K range- which isn't feasible in the Twin Cities.

Once I'd do the numbers and pull credit and tell them what they could afford- they'd go bonkers on me... some would even tell me I was discriminating against them. I would even take the time to explain their debt to income, and if they wanted a $200K house, this is the income they'd need. Most people would come to me with a house in mind, and the monthly payment exceeded their monthly income!

No one is entitled to a home- it's something you earn and work towards.

I had an sweet black girl come in for loan approval one day, she came in with her father. I did the numbers, pulled her credit...and there was no way around it. She could only afford about $500.00 per month for a mortgage payment. Her father was so upset with me. Saying that I was holding his daughter back and discriminating. He wanted me to add his income to the formula to increase her buying power. I asked him if he was going to either co-sign or help with her payments. He said no. I said, sir...if I add your income to the mix, she can now afford a $1000.00 per month mortgage, but with no way to pay for $500.00 of it each month. He STILL wanted me to approve her.

I sent them away, angry and upset. (thankfully the law and the numbers were on my side) I got a call from her father a couple of weeks later, that a mortgage broker (who I knew to be unethical) approved his daughter for a rather large mortgage loan- and she was buying a house... I begged him to reconsider, as it would be her financial ruin. He would hear nothing of it. And said he was filing a complaint against me for discrimination.

His daughter lost that house within 9 months...she never even made one payment- because she could not afford it. Her father is now suing that broker for approving his daughter for a loan she could not afford, and is also saying that he was trying to ruin her because she was black.

This was a case of someone that KNEW going into it, that she could not afford a home- yet she and her father wanted her to have one so bad- because the government had special programs out there (for which she did not qualify), and they went ahead and made the decision to go forward...they took a risk. I would not say that in her case she had bad luck. I'd say in her case she was foolish and paid the consequences of her actions...

We didn't borrow the money, that was a misstatement on my part. My grandparents were kind enough to basically take out an advance on my inheritance.

And yes, we CAN afford the house. We are paying the same amount of money we would be paying to rent. It really doesn't make any sense to pay that much for rent, not be able to save, and have nothing to show for it.

Our lender did sit down with us and show us how much we COULD qualify for based on our income and expenses, and we chose to buy a home nearly $50,000 cheaper than that number.

I'm sorry that some of you feel my husband and I don't deserve our home.

 

[peichef]

HatheryI don't think (I hope) anyone feels you don't deserve your home. I must agree with the lovely Kitchen Diva, though, that there is a MAJOR sense of entitlement these days -- not only with young people (I'm including my peer group in that category, BTW) -- but in general. (Please know that I am NOT suggesting that YOU have entitlement issues, it is a societal issue. I don't know you & wouldn't presume to make that statement about anyone unless I knew them very well.)My DH & I have this chat all the time. Our peers (and, even more so, people a few yrs yuonger than us) seem to emerge from university (because they felt entitled to a university education, regardless of academic ability, financial circumstances or work ethic) thinking that a) they should drive a car that is nicer than their parents' car, b) have a home bigger, newer and better furnished than their parents' home and c) work minimal hours and get promoted to Sr VP within 6 months!It seems that gone are the days where our parents lived in basement apartments or mobile homes until they could scrape enough $$ together to make a down payment on a modest home. Gone are the days of driving a shabby 2nd hand car as you climbed your way up the corporate ladder, earning a promotion via hard work & tenacity.It's sad. And so now we have people living on credit, with 52" plasma tvs, lovely cars and taking yearly vacations that they can't pay for. For what? Image, fulfillment?I would love to have a new car every 3 yrs. I wold love top buy myself fancy clothes & buy my DH the stereo system he's been wanting for 13+ yrs. But we don't live on credit. So while our friends have all the toys, we'll have a lovely early retirement. I guess it's a about what people value.Again, Hathery, please know my comments are IN NO WAY directed at you or at any one person. Just my reflection on our materialistic culture in general.

 

[janetupnorth]

Ditto what Charity said. When someone mentioned that they believe that some people are posting just to stir up trouble, I believe posts like, "I'm sorry you don't feel my DH and I deserve our home" do that.If you followed the whole conversation you were in. It started with the viewpoint that it is the government's responsibility to provide homes to people. We talked about the societal view of entitlement as the issue. Amy provided her case of working hard and saving and getting the home she wanted. We applauded her. If you did the same as you state you did, then well, you deserve to be in a home too and if you bought less than they tried to lend you credit for - kudos to you!I don't think you will find anyone here that doesn't feel you deserve that if you worked for it.As we've politely warned in the past, please avoid small snip-its and comments that draw a conclusion clearly not presented in the topic of conversation and avoid being personal unless you are sharing a personal story. The comment that I reference by wording the way it was draws emotion to yourself and your husband. No one directed at yours and his situation as you just described it. You could have told the story without the comment.We'd had situations over the last few years here where people have tried to play the "woe is me" and "you're attacking me" game (granted I'm not accusing you of that at all - this is a general statement) so we are very cautious here not to fall into that in discussions.We have a place to share prayer requests and successes and other great things of a more personal nature. Here we are discussing issues....just my 2 cents, er uh I mean quarter for the morning...

 

[Hathery]

I'm sorry, but I felt like I was being told I didn't deserve my home when I was told I "couldn't afford it" by someone who didn't even know my financial situation. So many of you are going on about entitlement as if everyone who has to borrow money or take out a loan is simply greedy or feels entitled...you should all feel lucky if you didn't have to do those things. Not all of us are that lucky.

I just got my social security statement the other day, and I have working SSA wages on my record from the age of 12 on. I have ALWAYS worked hard, and still couldn't just save up and buy a home like people did years ago. There are other things that need to be taken into consideration, like student loans and other necessary expenses. I DO feel entitled to a home, because I've worked hard as long as I can remember and I work hard to this day. Just because I couldn't save up and buy the house flat-out or provide the whole down-payment on my own doesn't make me bad; it makes me like most people.

 

[peichef]

Just because I couldn't save up and buy the house flat-out or provide the whole down-payment on my own doesn't make me bad; it makes me like most people.

I don't think anyone thinks you're a bad person. And Kacey just went on what you stated. You clarified later that you'd "misspoken". She was simply pointing out that, given her understanding of your situation, someone (NOT YOU) had broken the law & behaved unethically.

There have been A LOT of unethical lenders out there -- hence the situation your country is in with the Sub-Prime lending crisis.


My own comments were not directed at you in ANY WAY (the LAST thing I'd ever want to do is hurt someone's feelings, especially a fellow Cheffer). I was just making an observation about my the insane number of people who live beyond their means & also those who DO have a real sense of entitlement. It seems to be of epidemic proportions these days.

 

[Hathery]

I don't think anyone thinks you're a bad person. And Kacey just went on what you stated. You clarified later that you'd "misspoken". She was simply pointing out that, given her understanding of your situation, someone (NOT YOU) had broken the law & behaved unethically.

There have been A LOT of unethical lenders out there -- hence the situation your country is in with the Sub-Prime lending crisis.


My own comments were not directed at you in ANY WAY (the LAST thing I'd ever want to do is hurt someone's feelings, especially a fellow Cheffer). I was just making an observation about my the insane number of people who live beyond their means & also those who DO have a real sense of entitlement. It seems to be of epidemic proportions these days.

Thank you for clarifying that!

I agree; there really have been a lot of unethical lenders, and I do hope they get what's coming to them!

 

[Kitchen Diva]

We didn't borrow the money, that was a misstatement on my part. My grandparents were kind enough to basically take out an advance on my inheritance.

And yes, we CAN afford the house. We are paying the same amount of money we would be paying to rent. It really doesn't make any sense to pay that much for rent, not be able to save, and have nothing to show for it.

Our lender did sit down with us and show us how much we COULD qualify for based on our income and expenses, and we chose to buy a home nearly $50,000 cheaper than that number.

I'm sorry that some of you feel my husband and I don't deserve our home.

You have a real spirit of manipulation about you. I never said you didn't deserve your home. Based on the information that you gave me, I replied using that information...

Additionally I am not going to let you abuse me with your "I'm sorry that some of you feel my husband and I don't deserve our home" That's just moderately ridiculous. Not one person said that. Nice try though- I'm sure you'll get someone to fall for that.

Further more, I don't have to be a fan of low income or lower credit/ not well established credit loan programs like WHEDA and others. I'm also not a fan of stated income/stated asset programs where people with credit scores of 750 or above do not need to provide the underwritter's or lender's ANY proof of their stated income or assets. Because they can lie about it. I've done loans in ALL 50 states, I've seen every government program out there...

No one is entitled to OWN a home- However if one works hard, is responsible with their credit, saves money- and shows they are capable of paying their bills- then the reward could very well be home ownership- Because it was earned- not given.

 

[Hathery]

You have a real spirit of manipulation about you. I never said you didn't deserve your home. Based on the information that you gave me, I replied using that information...

Additionally I am not going to let you abuse me with your "I'm sorry that some of you feel my husband and I don't deserve our home" That's just moderately ridiculous. Not one person said that. Nice try though- I'm sure you'll get someone to fall for that.

Further more, I don't have to be a fan of low income or lower credit/ not well established credit loan programs like WHEDA and others. I'm also not a fan of stated income/stated asset programs where people with credit scores of 750 or above do not need to provide the underwritter's or lender's ANY proof of their stated income or assets. Because they can lie about it. I've done loans in ALL 50 states, I've seen every government program out there...

No one is entitled to OWN a home- However if one works hard, is responsible with their credit, saves money- and shows they are capable of paying their bills- then the reward could very well be home ownership- Because it was earned- not given.

That's what we did, with a little help from our family to kick-start things. If you do those things, you are certainly entitled to a home in my opinion. Maybe not a mansion, but you should be able to afford some sort of home which is more than a lot of Americans can say with housing costs the way they are.

 

[janetupnorth]

Entitled:
1. To give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim: His executive position entitled him to certain courtesies rarely accorded others. Earned:
1. To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work: earned money by mowing lawns.
2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action: She earned a reputation as a hard worker.
3. To yield as return or profit: a savings account that earns interest on deposited funds.Once and for all, please use proper English...you EARNED a home and bought it. You are not entitled to it! You should not be GIVEN it!

 

[Hathery]

Entitled:
1. To give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something; furnish with grounds for laying claim: His executive position entitled him to certain courtesies rarely accorded others.

Earned:
1. To gain especially for the performance of service, labor, or work: earned money by mowing lawns.
2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action: She earned a reputation as a hard worker.
3. To yield as return or profit: a savings account that earns interest on deposited funds.


Once and for all, please use proper English...you EARNED a home and bought it. You are not entitled to it! You should not be GIVEN it!

I wasn't given it, but I have a right to it (through hard work) as per the definition of entitlement.

And my English is quite proper, thank you.

 

[janetupnorth]

I wasn't given it, but I have a right to it (through hard work) as per the definition of entitlement.

And my English is quite proper, thank you.

You don't have a right to a house through hard work. You are entitled to BUY a house through hard work. Once bought, then you are entitled to it.

However, I still don't believe you are entitled.

No one should be ENTITLED to loan you money. If you can pay for a house in cash then you should be able to buy it.

If you can't you should not be ENTITLED to a loan...that is not a basic right. I am not ENTITLED to lend you my hard earned money, I own it, I have the right to do with it as I please, just as an organization has a right to DENY you a loan.

That is the point!

 

[Hathery]

You don't have a right to a house through hard work. You are entitled to BUY a house through hard work. Once bought, then you are entitled to it.

However, I still don't believe you are entitled.

No one should be ENTITLED to loan you money. If you can pay for a house in cash then you should be able to buy it.

If you can't you should not be ENTITLED to a loan...that is not a basic right. I am not ENTITLED to lend you my hard earned money, I own it, I have the right to do with it as I please, just as an organization has a right to DENY you a loan.

That is the point!

I'm sorry, but I don't see your point? If the government is not going to make housing available to all its people at a proportionate cost (we ARE entitled to affordable housing IMO), then they must ensure that loans are available to people who need them. What's so horrible about that?

 

[chefmeg]

things are heating up here~
Hathery, I don't know if you have noticed that on this and several other threads, you always wind up defending yourself.....maybe you should think before you type as your posts generally come to offend others.

Just an observation.

 

[Hathery]

things are heating up here~
Hathery, I don't know if you have noticed that on this and several other threads, you always wind up defending yourself.....maybe you should think before you type as your posts generally come to offend others.

Just an observation.

Yes, I have noticed that. I don't think it's because of how I present myself though, but rather WHAT I present. If you haven't noticed, I have a rather different paradigm than many people on here, and for whatever reason it seems to really offend people some people on the other side of the fence. Most of those who agree with me have already quit looking at this and posting because of the unnecessary attacks made by the majority viewpoint. I've already been told to use proper English, leave the country, and been told I'm manipulative...that's not going to scare me away as it has many others.

 

[amy07]

back to the original issue.....................our ELECTED representatives are debating the bail out and the burden of ALL taxpayers..........

 

[Hathery]

back to the original issue.....................our ELECTED representatives are debating the bail out and the burden of ALL taxpayers..........

I wonder what they'll do differently this time around to make the resolution more palatable? I'm not totally understanding what the opposition was to begin with (hoping someone can clear that up.)

 

[janetupnorth]

I'm sorry, but I don't see your point? If the government is not going to make housing available to all its people at a proportionate cost (we ARE entitled to affordable housing IMO), then they must ensure that loans are available to people who need them. What's so horrible about that?

The point is we weren't discussing that. We were discussing the nature of society to feel entitled.

...and I would personally agree to disagree about it being the government's responsibility to provide affordable housing.

Define affordable? Do you want the government to define affordable?

You are changing our democratic society into one where prices and markets are controlled by the government. You are projecting a socialistic view of government. If you read Karl Marx that is pulling us into a stage between capitalism and communism.

I prefer capitalism thank you, not socialism.

 

[Hathery]

The point is we weren't discussing that. We were discussing the nature of society to feel entitled.

...and I would personally agree to disagree about it being the government's responsibility to provide affordable housing.

Define affordable? Do you want the government to define affordable?

You are changing our democratic society into one where prices and markets are controlled by the government. You are projecting a socialistic view of government. If you read Karl Marx that is pulling us into a stage between capitalism and communism.

I prefer capitalism thank you, not socialism.

I am quite prone to socialist thinking. It seems to have worked very well for the nation when FDR came on the scene, and I think it would be a positive direction for our country. That's my opinion, though.

I just want housing to be equivalent to the living wage. I don't care who determines that!

 

[janetupnorth]

Yes, I have noticed that. I don't think it's because of how I present myself though, but rather WHAT I present. If you haven't noticed, I have a rather different paradigm than many people on here, and for whatever reason it seems to really offend people some people on the other side of the fence. Most of those who agree with me have already quit looking at this and posting because of the unnecessary attacks made by the majority viewpoint. I've already been told to use proper English, leave the country, and been told I'm manipulative...that's not going to scare me away as it has many others.

No, I think it is HOW you present yourself. I have no problem discussing opposing viewpoints. We have done it successfully here on MANY issues INCLUDING religion.

I'm not offended by your viewpoints but you need to discuss, debate, whatever within reasonable bounds.

You cannot quote statistics that aren't proven and state them as fact.
Read a small comment and yes I will use Kacey's word, manipulate it to your viewpoint.

No one is trying to scare anyone away. We had a great forum before you came and all the old people are still here. Some are choosing not to discuss politics and that is their choice.

I told you to use proper English meaning use the proper definition of a word as a dictionary stated it don't twist it into meaning something different.

Kacey was addressing the point above about taking a snip-it of something and making it seem like someone implied something else.

Leave the country, well, I missed that, but hey, if the government isn't living up to its INTENT AS FOUNDED, then it needs to get back to that. If you want to change it to your type of society and it won't, then you have every RIGHT in America to go elsewhere. I am thankful for those who have fought to make America what it is. Try leaving Cuba if you didn't like your government? The US lets us leave if we want.

No one is trying to force you out of here or America. You CHOSE to jump in on these topics and chose your words and I agree with Meg. It isn't one person disagreeing and it isn't because of opposing viewpoints, it is how you word things. You chose to jump in on a heated topic without getting to know people.

 

[etteluap70PC]

For those of us wanting houses, unless you have a perfect score, and I do mean perfect, they aren't loaning. Not even with higher interests rates, which used to be an option. I just found an owner carry contract. It was the only way we were going to get back into a house.

I'm thinking it could make a difference where you are banking. The mortgage guy ion my networking group said they are still writing loans. I asked about a family member with less than stellar credit and he said they could still get a loan although it may not be as much as a few years ago.

Some banks are still doing OK.

 

[Hathery]

No, I think it is HOW you present yourself. I have no problem discussing opposing viewpoints. We have done it successfully here on MANY issues INCLUDING religion.

I'm not offended by your viewpoints but you need to discuss, debate, whatever within reasonable bounds.

You cannot quote statistics that aren't proven and state them as fact.
Read a small comment and yes I will use Kacey's word, manipulate it to your viewpoint.

Sorry, but there are a number of people on here using biblical quotes as their references and stating those as fact. That doesn't seem to get chastised.

I told you to use proper English meaning use the proper definition of a word as a dictionary stated it don't twist it into meaning something different.

Kacey was addressing the point above about taking a snip-it of something and making it seem like someone implied something else.

I'm not twisting it to mean something else. You said "Use Proper English"...you didn't say "please use the proper definition of that word." You are twisting your own words and doing exactly what you tell me not to do.

Leave the country, well, I missed that, but hey, if the government isn't living up to its INTENT AS FOUNDED, then it needs to get back to that. If you want to change it to your type of society and it won't, then you have every RIGHT in America to go elsewhere. I am thankful for those who have fought to make America what it is. Try leaving Cuba if you didn't like your government? The US lets us leave if we want.

No one is trying to force you out of here or America. You CHOSE to jump in on these topics and chose your words and I agree with Meg. It isn't one person disagreeing and it isn't because of opposing viewpoints, it is how you word things. You chose to jump in on a heated topic without getting to know people.

I also have a right to attempt to change America, as does any American. Just because some of my views don't agree with the current state of the nation doesn't mean I should have to leave the country.

 

[amy07]

I'm thinking it could make a difference where you are banking. The mortgage guy ion my networking group said they are still writing loans. I asked about a family member with less than stellar credit and he said they could still get a loan although it may not be as much as a few years ago.

Some banks are still doing OK.

I agree. Shop, shop, shop.
But I will also say to LockhartKichen, that my first house was a lease/option. The great thing about that is the sale price was set when we signed the agreement. Plus, I had in the agreement that the owner would pay a portion of my closing costs. Plan, plan, plan.....

 

[janetupnorth]

Proper English means to use the words in the way they are defined in the dictionary not your own terms or slang. So since this is confusing, let me clarify my post so you don't misinterpret it.Please use the proper definition of words when posting in a serious political or economical discussion.Thank you.

 

[janetupnorth]

I also have a right to attempt to change America, as does any American. Just because some of my views don't agree with the current state of the nation doesn't mean I should have to leave the country.

Read what I said...

If you want it to change and IT WON'T, then you have the right to go elsewhere. I never once denied your right to vote for something opposing to me.

 

[janetupnorth]

Sorry, but there are a number of people on here using biblical quotes as their references and stating those as fact. That doesn't seem to get chastised.

The Bible has been in existence for more years than most documents and much of it is PROVEN as truth and matches other historical documents. They have every right to quote it to back up their BELIEFS as you do to quote your ideals as fact.

That is different than quoting a number as fact when it isn't.

No one said, "The Bible says we in 1957 homes that cost $X."

Whether or not you agree with the Bible is one thing. I may not agree with some government studies and I am cautious how I read and INTERPRET them because you need to know the basis for the study and the scientific process to conduct it.

Anyway, I'll be back later, I have better things to do than argue semantics over and over.

 

[Hathery]

Read what I said...

If you want it to change and IT WON'T, then you have the right to go elsewhere. I never once denied your right to vote for something opposing to me.

No, no--I didn't say you were denying me any rights. I'm just saying the other person implied I should leave the country if I don't agree with something, and as an American I have the right to attempt to change it (or to leave if I choose.) That wasn't meant to be a commentary on anything you said; it was in reference to the other person's comment.

 

[Hathery]

The Bible has been in existence for more years than most documents and much of it is PROVEN as truth and matches other historical documents. They have every right to quote it to back up their BELIEFS as you do to quote your ideals as fact.

That is different than quoting a number as fact when it isn't.

No one said, "The Bible says we in 1957 homes that cost $X."

Whether or not you agree with the Bible is one thing. I may not agree with some government studies and I am cautious how I read and INTERPRET them because you need to know the basis for the study and the scientific process to conduct it.

Anyway, I'll be back later, I have better things to do than argue semantics over and over.

Oh for the love...someone on here specifically said that abortion is wrong because it's in the Bible, and the Bible is God's word so it's the truth. There is absolutely no evidence other than religious tradition saying that the Bible is God's own word; believing it is does not make it fact.

Much of the Bible is certainly accurate historically, but the "law" portion of it cannot be used as factual evidence to prove anything in a debate. Even the most religious among us should know that.

I really don't recall quoting my ideals as fact either.

 

[jenne]

I also have a right to attempt to change America, as does any American. Just because some of my views don't agree with the current state of the nation doesn't mean I should have to leave the country.

You may feel this way...I, on the other hand, feel that our country was founded as something completely different from the rest of the world. Our Constitution was unlike any other form of government at the time. Our country was never intended to be a socialist country, so I don't feel that anyone has the right to change it to such. If you want to live in a socialist country, find one to live in. Our country was intended to be a republic and our government has overstepped its bounds in many areas that our Constitution never gave the government rights to. Our Presidents swear to uphold the Constitution in their oath...and few of them have done that, which is what gets us into the mess we are in. Our country needs to get back to letting the people govern themselves. Yes, I do think the government needs to go and let the people hire their own police force, their own teachers, etc. When we govern ourselves, we are much better off...IMO.

 

[Hathery]

You may feel this way...I, on the other hand, feel that our country was founded as something completely different from the rest of the world. Our Constitution is unlike any other form of government at the time. Our country was never intended to be a socialist country, so I don't feel that anyone has the right to change it to such. If you want to live in a socialist country, find one to live in. Our country was intended to be a republic and our government has overstepped its bounds in many areas that our Constitution never gave the government rights to. Our Presidents swear to uphold the Constitution in their oath...and few of them have done that, which is what gets us into the mess we are in. Our country needs to get back to letting the people govern themselves. Yes, I do think the government needs to go and let the people hire their own police force, their own teachers, etc. When we govern ourselves, we are much better off...IMO.

Socialism isn't communism. FDR was a socialist; he implemented wonderful programs to benefit Americans during WWII. I believe the government should follow his legacy and continue to provide social programs that benefit everyone. That's not changing anything about the Constitution.

 

[jenne]

Socialism isn't communism. FDR was a socialist; he implemented wonderful programs to benefit Americans during WWII. I believe the government should follow his legacy and continue to provide social programs that benefit everyone. That's not changing anything about the Constitution.

I never said socialism is communism...they are VERY different. But I feel that socialism in its whole gives far more power to the government than our Constitution grants them. Our country is headed there, and I personally feel that it is not right. It oversteps constitutional bounds, that's all I'm saying.

 

[chefmeg]

Oh for the love...someone on here specifically said that abortion is wrong because it's in the Bible, and the Bible is God's word so it's the truth. There is absolutely no evidence other than religious tradition saying that the Bible is God's own word; believing it is does not make it fact.

Much of the Bible is certainly accurate historically, but the "law" portion of it cannot be used as factual evidence to prove anything in a debate. Even the most religious among us should know that.

I really don't recall quoting my ideals as fact either.

I really don't believe this.........what about "thou shalt not kill"????????? Are you seriously trying to bring this up again? I am so out of here~it seems like any thread that has the potential to piss you off, does and I just won't cater to your side of things~you won't change my mind and I won't change yours. Enough said.

 

[Hathery]

I never said socialism is communism...they are VERY different. But I feel that socialism in its whole gives far more power to the government than our Constitution grants them. Our country is headed there, and I personally feel that it is not right. It oversteps constitutional bounds, that's all I'm saying.

Gotcha! Big government vs. Limited Government. Fundamental differences between the current presidential candidates. I can definitely respect what you're saying; I am more of a "big government" type of person, but I understand the concerns of people who don't see it as a good thing.

 

[jenne]

Gotcha! Big government vs. Limited Government. Fundamental differences between the current presidential candidates. I can definitely respect what you're saying; I am more of a "big government" type of person, but I understand the concerns of people who don't see it as a good thing.

Gotcha?? what's that all about? What did you get me at?

 

[Hathery]

I really don't believe this.........what about "thou shalt not kill"????????? Are you seriously trying to bring this up again? I am so out of here~it seems like any thread that has the potential to piss you off, does and I just won't cater to your side of things~you won't change my mind and I won't change yours. Enough said.

Yes, many of our Constitutional law are based on principals that coincide with Biblical principals. As well as core principals of many other world religions. There's really not an argument there. You can cite the Constitution as a reference for this law, but it's not useful to cite "God's law" in a debate.

I'm not p***ed off as you say I am; you're the one who seems to be getting bent out of shape at the moment. And I really don't understand why.

 

[Hathery]

Gotcha?? what's that all about? What did you get me at?

No "gotcha" as in "I understand what you're saying."

 

[chefmeg]

Yes, many of our Constitutional law are based on principals that coincide with Biblical principals. As well as core principals of many other world religions. There's really not an argument there. You can cite the Constitution as a reference for this law, but it's not useful to cite "God's law" in a debate.
I'm not p***ed off as you say I am; you're the one who seems to be getting bent out of shape at the moment. And I really don't understand why.

That is where we differ~I feel it is always useful to cite God's law, debate or not. HE is the higher power that I will have to justify myself to one day and my live is lived on that standard. Everything we do is judged by HIM and that includes how we spend our money, time and energy.
You may not think you are pissed off, but your tone comes through loud & clear in your posts~they say a whole other thing.
I will leave this thread in giving you one piece of advice~it can never always be someone else's "fault"~example...if you have found that the majority of your posts are being attacked, YOU may be the one with a problem. Everyone else can't be all wrong all the time.

 

[jenne]

Oh...sorry...

BUT....Don't make any assumptions about which candidate I back because I want limited government. (not saying that you've done this, but can see how someone could) The limited government McCain talks about is not limited enough for me. I don't like either candidate that is placed before us this year, and feel that our two party system is a joke. I would like to see some REAL change....but REAL to the point that NEITHER candidate satisfies me.

Anyhow...that is another topic completely...and I won't rabbit trail that one any further on this thread about our economic mess. I just think the government needs to stay out of this mess we are in...many economists are against a bailout deal and feel that our economy would straighten itself out...I don't have time to look up the 'proof' for that, but I've read many articles lately from many different sources that have stated that. If I have time later, I will cite some of them here.

 

[janetupnorth]

Oh...sorry...

BUT....Don't make any assumptions about which candidate I back because I want limited government. (not saying that you've done this, but can see how someone could) The limited government McCain talks about is not limited enough for me. I don't like either candidate that is placed before us this year, and feel that our two party system is a joke. I would like to see some REAL change....but REAL to the point that NEITHER candidate satisfies me.

Anyhow...that is another topic completely...and I won't rabbit trail that one any further on this thread about our economic mess. I just think the government needs to stay out of this mess we are in...many economists are against a bailout deal and feel that our economy would straighten itself out...I don't have time to look up the 'proof' for that, but I've read many articles lately from many different sources that have stated that. If I have time later, I will cite some of them here.

I can agree with that!