Pre-K vs Kindergarten: Considering Holding Back My DD for Social Readiness

[pamperedposey]

Fun to see all the different perspectives! My older dd's b-day is in June, she went to K after she turned 5 & has been doing fantastic. I don't like the 'no child left behind' much either. They are learning things so early, and I see some kids in her class struggling. It's gotta be so hard to be a teacher these days.
Cindy, I'm in the same boat as you with my younger dd. Her b-day is Sept 1 & will turn 5 this year; our school cut-off is Aug 31 & they won't budge either. So she will have her second year of preschool. Here though, most people send their kids to preschool for 2 years. At age 3 they can go 2 days a week, & at age 4 they can go for 3 days a week. She'll learn some different things next year; though both socially & intellectually I think she *would* be ready for K. (but I don't really mind keeping my baby home for one more year ) Plus, here K is all day; so it's a pretty big adjustment from preschool.

Good luck with your decision!

We have Kindergarten full time too. They go from 7:40-2:40. Our county starts way earlier than any of the surrounding counties.

I have noticed in the past month or so that they have been really slamming on the homework. It started with none, then one sheet a couple nights a week. Then something every night. Now we have a list sent home every week that we have to work on nightly, plus a separate sheet every day and sometimes they have a special project like a matching game or bucket of letters, etc. Everynight we have to review her word list and read the book that they are working on that week.

On nights that she has gymnastics we don't get home until 6pm and by the time we have dinner, shower and get on pj's it's time for bed. Then we have to work it in before school the next morning. It's crazy!

 

[chefkristin]

My son started Kindergarten this past September. His birthday was August 2nd. So we are now facing issues with him learning to listen to what he is told. Academically I really think he is ok. He has a problem with transition and also has the energy of a locomotive. He is exhausting. But when we are home just the 2 of us he makes comments and says things to make me believe that he really is getting it. We work with him at home with his letters which is his hardest thing.
At least your teacher is telling you what to do. My son's is saying that it is basically the parents choice whether to keep him back. We are also in the beginning stages of having him tested for ADHD. It is very hard to hold his attention on one thing. I usually end up calling his name 4 or5 times before he says WHAT?? I think you are his mom and know him best but the teachers are with him all day and know better about him "school wise". Good luck, I know EXACTLY what your going through.

 

[jrstephens]

Hijack!!!

My Sammie's b-day is the same day!

Luke will be 4, how old is Sammie?

 

[janetupnorth]

I need to go back and read the posts again. We are not talking about an early starter right...this child is going to be the "normal" age for Kindergarten but just has a later birthday than the other kids. But, really a summer birthday is not late. It is in the normal range of the cutoff.

My October son waited the extra year to start school and he is bored to death in his classes. The school is doing the best they can for him, but he is BORED!! I started to "test him out" and send him on to Kindergarten early, but decided against it because that would have put him in a class of mostly girls...and they were/are all hateful little brats...so I didn't put him there. There are many times that I wish I would have sent him anyway. He is one of the oldest people in his class and he hears "its easy for you because you're older". He will be nearly 19 when he graduates from high school. Perhaps he will be better able to "handle" the world and yes he might be bigger in size and that will help him with sports, but I think there are negatives there too. When you are 12 in the 6th grade and most everyone else is 11 until late in the spring or summer, it causes problems too.

That's what I gathered too! Hence my opinion to send her on to kindergarten. My birthday was July 29th and I went to kindergarten when 5. The only disadvantage was I didn't turn 18 until AFTER H.S. and all the jobs I wanted (to match my skills) weren't available to anyone under 18. Of course, I even though of graduating after 3 years of HS and would have been even younger! I decided to take Calculus and all the advanced sciences in HS while they were still free my senior year. I was able to test out of level 1 Calculus, Chemisty and Physics in college which saved a few bucks.

Girls jump socially faster than boys so if it is February and she is just a little behind socially only, chances are by fall she'll be more than ready!!!!

She would be starting "on time". So why hold her back. If she takes a jump academically holding her back will hurt because you WILL NOT want to skip her ahead later.

If the decision wasn't the best, just repeat kindergarten next year. There was a girl that repeated K this year at my daughter's school without issues. (She started kindergarten at age 4).

Whatever you decide, go with your motherly guts! It will work out.

 

[lkprescott]

I need to go back and read the posts again. We are not talking about an early starter right...this child is going to be the "normal" age for Kindergarten but just has a later birthday than the other kids. But, really a summer birthday is not late. It is in the normal range of the cutoff.

My October son waited the extra year to start school and he is bored to death in his classes. The school is doing the best they can for him, but he is BORED!! I started to "test him out" and send him on to Kindergarten early, but decided against it because that would have put him in a class of mostly girls...and they were/are all hateful little brats...so I didn't put him there. There are many times that I wish I would have sent him anyway. He is one of the oldest people in his class and he hears "its easy for you because you're older". He will be nearly 19 when he graduates from high school. Perhaps he will be better able to "handle" the world and yes he might be bigger in size and that will help him with sports, but I think there are negatives there too. When you are 12 in the 6th grade and most everyone else is 11 until late in the spring or summer, it causes problems too.

That's what I wonder through all this holding back kids to start when they're older now means they'll be close to 19 or even 20 in some instances... what kind of stigma is in that?

One of my son's friends is 13 and in 6th grade... he's a little guy though so it's hard to see but he's got another friend sporting a mustache... in 6th grade! I remember som 18 year olds my senior year, some of them dropped out, they were adults... able to sign for themselves and would rather make money than stay in school... I so fear for that happening more with the holding kids back.

It's interesting to see how the different areas though have different cut offs (ours is age 5 by 9/10 - it used to be January of the following year - I would have been held back a year at this new cutoff) and some folks here have public preschool? Wow... that must be nice. I pay for my daughter to go to preschool daycare twice a week (the 'official' preK program the Y has is only a couple hours a day but she wouldn't have made that age cut off either LOL) and they mesh with the public school but get not just academics but gym and even spanish and computer time.

 

[Jules711]

Yes, she IS going be 5 by the cut off (9/1). She is currently in every day Pre-K (the cutoff was 4 by 9/1 and some exceptions for younger if they needed it). She's there for about 2.5 hours each day and LOVES it. She is friendly and loves to play with the kids. She can sit for hours coloring and painting and plays well with others and by herself. I *think* (since I haven't spoken to her teacher again since this was mentioned Friday) that her issues are participating in new things (like singing or talking). She likes to do it right (she's the same at home singing new songs...then you can't stop her). I need other specifics before I really make my decision, but to me that's personality. Fun, fun! I will keep you updated if you want to know what we decide and how she does. I love the idea of her going to the K class for a day (or 1/2 day) to see what that teacher thinks. Plus, one school already invited me to come back any time to see. In fact, she was invited to attend afternoons in the spring if I want. Maybe that would be an option. I'd have to pay, but probably not much.

 

[MaddyandOwensMom]

I am a former kindergarten teacher and taught half day kindergarten for five years. I live on Long Island in New York State where we now have full day kindergarten and the 1st grade curriculum has been pushed down to kindergarten. I am also the mom to a bright Jan 20th girl who will enter kindergarten at 5 1/5. I also have a DS who turned three on Nov 17th. Our kindergarten cut-off is 12/1, so he potentially will be the youngest in the class. He is also bright, but socially imature and you can bet he will be held back a year even though that is a couple of years off. I don't care if he does know everything academic that he should, he will not be as productive as he could be in kindergarten and will drive the teacher and other kids crazy. I know from way too much experience that social immaturity is HUGE in kindergarten and is probably THE MOST important thing a parent should consider, even if your child knows academics, before deciding whether or not to send a child at a younger age.

First off I think that your daughter will do just fine in kindergarten. I never had an issue with a summer baby who was late August. It tends to be fall babies and more likely boys that have the difficulties. Some work out and some don't so I always tell parents to consider holding a child back and giving them a chance (one of our kindergarten teachers who knew better sent her fall boy to kdg and it has been a disaster for years.) Also, keep in mind that many schools are very big into social promotion and although keeping a child back for an additional year of kindergarten makes sense, some schools have policy against it.

That being said, I respectfully disagree with those who say its not about social and about academic or boredom. Yes, I had my share of kids who were young and had academic difficulties and many did catch up after a couple of years. But I had some really smart kids who just were too socially immature to handle the structure of a classroom. What you see at home is very different from a classroom setting. The problems a young child has when going to kindergaerten too early is almost always social and it is a big disruption to the teacher and other kids as well as the child him or herself. And I do,again, respectfully, disagree with the bordom idea. Kindergarten is not boring place and there is just so much to do. It's more that kids can't handle the structure that is unfortunately necessary to run a classroom. This is not to say that kids can't be bored if they know everything, but I have not seen it at the kindergarten level. I have actually felt that a child who knows many academic things has a great confidence level and can help other kids. They love that! Again, not that I know any of your kids, but in my experience, "boredom" was an excuse for poor behavior. You may know lots of things, but if you can't sit still for 15 minutes and show me, that's social immaturity. I saw boredom more when I taught second grade. It is then up to the teacher to offer more challenging assignments.

Fall is a long way off and you can make a decision at the last minute. It's just my opinion "social readiness" is much more important than academic readiness. If you are not socially ready, you may have a problem dealing with the academics or just simply learning how to be a good classroom citizen. Just my two cents (or $1.50)!
Jessica

 

[etteluap70PC]

Luke will be 4, how old is Sammie?

She will be 7! Ahhhh... time goes by too fast! I am sooo not ready for all the girly drama! LOL.....

Oh well I guess the testosterone from my 3yr old will help counter it.

Ok End Hijack.....

 

[Jules711]

At the school I choose, I'm thinking that they will let her stay for an extra year of K if she needs it. It is a full day, everyday K, but if I don't think she can handle it, I think they'll allow her to just go 1/2 days AND she'll have a smaller class size (probably up to 15?). I think most people talking about boredom (or at least me) are thinking of the later grades. After all...keeping her back this year, effects every year. I don't worry that she's really be bored in pre-K a 2nd year. I just want to be sure she continues to grow.

 

[Shawnna]

Well, I will say that my son has been and still is bored in his classroom. He is not having any poor behavior problems. As a matter of fact his teachers and everyone at school talks about how wonderful he is and what a gentleman he is. (As a matter of fact I am blessed that they say that about all my children. I have never been called to the school for poor behavior and none of my children have ever been discipline problems. It is nice for teachers to come up to you and tell you good things about your children.) He finishes all his work early and then spends the rest of his time reading...which is a good thing. He loves to read books on history. But, he is bored with the level of academic challenge he is receiving. It is better now at the school he is attending, but his previous school was not keeping his brain occupied. As an early childhood teacher I know the difference in bad behavior and boredom. Boredom can at times lead to disruptive behavior, but I have never seen an instance that it was used as an excuse. If the teacher can't keep the students busy they will be disruptive. I am very blessed to have a child who sits quietly and reads. They wouldn't allow him to help other students.

But as I stated earlier, my son is an October baby which puts him almost a year older than his classmates which does not help the boredom issue. He is in the sixth grade and I hope that when he goes to Junior High he will be challenged more. He will have more class options which should help. I will admit that I am not complaining about him getting finished with his work early and reading until class is over. Reading is very important. My middle child struggled with reading for what seemed like forever. It was like one day a light bulb came on in her head and she "got it". From then on she has no trouble with reading and reads everything she gets her hands on. She is a March baby and even though she didn't learn to read until the end of 1st grade I would never have considered holding her back. With her personality it would have crushed her spirit. She does okay in school except for Algebra which is a daily struggle.

So, every child is different and every parent has to look at both sides of the issue. But my opinion is still to send her to Kindergarten if she is in the age cutoff range.

 

[wadesgirl]

My sister and I got into this discussion over the weekend. Her DD is having problems in school. The teacher appears to be very emotional and tell her DD that she feels like DD is mad at her when ever she doesn't listen. It was a big long envolved parent teacher conference! Kids aren't cookie cutter, you cannot fit them into one certain mold. Certain kids are quieter, more talkative, more outgoing, better spellers, not good in math, etc. Just because your daughter isn't sociable right now doesn't mean that she will be in K. Maybe hanging out with kids all day will help her come out of her shell. And if not, then that is just the person your daughter is. I wouldn't hold her back academically just because of this.

 

[Shawnna]

I was looking through boxes of my "memories" that my mom saved for me. My Kindergarten, 1st, and 2nd grade report cards all had the "needs improvement" mark in the area of socializing with the other kids. I changed schools for 3rd -12th grade and didn't have those marks anymore. I asked my daddy...who was an elementary school teacher...and he said "You didn't socialize. You didn't want to play. You just wanted to read all the time and that is how you spent your recesses". He was in college when I was in HeadStart and he taught me to read before I went to Kindergarten. I guess he used me for his practice teaching...LOL Like I posted earlier, I was the youngest in my class...in most cases nearly a year younger...and i was Valedictorian of my Jr. High and Senior graduating class.

You have received lots of opinions and different perspectives. I know you will make the best decision for your child. It is interesting to see the different cut-off dates. For some reason I assumed it was a Nation-wide date, but maybe it is a state-wide date. In my area it is September 1st. When I went to school it was November 1st.

While we are on the school subject, I heard that there is a plan in the works...well it is being pushed in Washington...that they are trying to fix it where every country's children will receive the same everything. That the UN will tell us where to send our children to school, who can go to school, what we can and cannot do with our children. I was told that there are only 2 countries who haven't signed this...the United States is one and I can't remember the other. Have any of you heard this? A preacher told my husband and I this last night at dinner. He said he saw it on TV. I find this very objectionable. I don't want the UN telling me anything...especially about how to raise my children. I personally think we have too much government involvement in the raising of our children now.

Okay, sorry to hijack...just curious if anyone else had heard this.

 

[janetupnorth]

I was looking through boxes of my "memories" that my mom saved for me. My Kindergarten, 1st, and 2nd grade report cards all had the "needs improvement" mark in the area of socializing with the other kids. I changed schools for 3rd -12th grade and didn't have those marks anymore. I asked my daddy...who was an elementary school teacher...and he said "You didn't socialize. You didn't want to play. You just wanted to read all the time and that is how you spent your recesses". He was in college when I was in HeadStart and he taught me to read before I went to Kindergarten. I guess he used me for his practice teaching...LOL Like I posted earlier, I was the youngest in my class...in most cases nearly a year younger...and i was Valedictorian of my Jr. High and Senior graduating class.

You have received lots of opinions and different perspectives. I know you will make the best decision for your child. It is interesting to see the different cut-off dates. For some reason I assumed it was a Nation-wide date, but maybe it is a state-wide date. In my area it is September 1st. When I went to school it was November 1st.

While we are on the school subject, I heard that there is a plan in the works...well it is being pushed in Washington...that they are trying to fix it where every country's children will receive the same everything. That the UN will tell us where to send our children to school, who can go to school, what we can and cannot do with our children. I was told that there are only 2 countries who haven't signed this...the United States is one and I can't remember the other. Have any of you heard this? A preacher told my husband and I this last night at dinner. He said he saw it on TV. I find this very objectionable. I don't want the UN telling me anything...especially about how to raise my children. I personally think we have too much government involvement in the raising of our children now.

Okay, sorry to hijack...just curious if anyone else had heard this.

Haven't heard that but do not want a worthless piece of crap organization like the UN telling me how to raise my kids!

 

[dianevill]

Janet, I'm not really clear on your opinion. Can you expand on that please?

 

[ChefBeckyD]

Janet, I'm not really clear on your opinion. Can you expand on that please?

LOL - I just read Janet's post - and was going to post the same thing!




For what it's worth - I totally agree, Janet!

 

[janetupnorth]

:blushing: Yeah, I don't verbalize my politics too much, but in the case of the UN...grrr...I find it totally worthless!

 

[janetupnorth]

Couldn't find much, but this article is interesting...http://stoplying.ca/news/08/jan/012908_the_United_Nations_is_coming_for_your_children.phpETA: Don't know anything about this website other than finding this article...

 

[ChefBeckyD]

Couldn't find much, but this article is interesting...

http://stoplying.ca/news/08/jan/012908_the_United_Nations_is_coming_for_your_children.php

hmmm, it wouldn't let me go there. I tried to click on the link, and then tried to cut and paste it into my browser.......

 

[janetupnorth]

hmmm, it wouldn't let me go there. I tried to click on the link, and then tried to cut and paste it into my browser.......

Odd...worked for me again...

"http://stoplying.ca/news/08/jan/012908_the_United_Nations_is_coming_for_your_children.php"

I'll put it in quotes so hopefully you can hi-light it...

 

[janetupnorth]

It seems very "anti-government" and I probably don't agree with half their stuff, but doesn't hurt to read up on the topic from various perspectives.

 

[ChefBeckyD]

This is what I keep getting -


Not Found
The requested URL /news/08/jan/012908_the_United_Nations_is_coming_for_your_child ren.php was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

 

[janetupnorth]

Google the phrase...UN is coming for your kids...and go from there.

 

[ChefBeckyD]

Just did - and I did find this.......actually, I remember now hearing about this a few years back - when you read it, it's frightening.....


Convention on the Rights of the Child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AnnieBee]

Or she thinks it okay to "be silly" (a term she uses whenever she isn't doing what you want). She's not bad or anything. She just gets distracted when they are eating. She kind of likes just watching the interactions of the other kids (some not so good ).

I am in the same boat, except that my DD will be going early (if she test's OK - we are applying for early entrance). Our cut off is Sept 30, and she won't be 5 until Nov 28. She started pre-school in Sept (she was three) and in Oct we had her moved up a year, with the schools agreement. We just had our parent/teacher conference. My DD has the best hand-writing in the class (writes whole name with upper and lower case letters, some of the kids can't write their names yet), is reading 3-5 letter words, counts to 100 etc etc - her academics are great. Socially, she does well in most areas except for self control... The teacher says that if a little boy reaches out to tickle during story time, then she responds and tickles back, and gets a bit silly. She is definitely influenced by her peers in that regard. I have volunteered in the classroom, and see other kids who will not be ready to go to K in the fall, soc. or academically, but can because they have the "right" birthday. I feel that if she stays in Pre-school, she will be bored (they are working on learning letters and numbers - she could do all of this before she started that class) and that if she was alround older kids, she would be positively influenced by their behaviour (I have seen this). On the other hand, I wouldn't want her to be the younger kid in K who disrupts things and/or negatively influences the other kids with her "silly" behaviour. On the other hand, if all of the kids in her current class go to K, she won't be the problem!

Aargh! What to do... I think she would love K and thrive there, if she passes the early entrance test. The other option is to find a pre-school with a class for 5 year olds who have been held back, but even then I think she will be academically ahead.

So, all of you teachers out there, any advice for me!?

And finally, for Jules, the "report" we got for Abbie broke down her Social/Emotional development into the following categories:

Interactions, Communication, Self-Control, Self Confidence (all with sub-headings too).

The kids were graded Beginning, Developing or Secure for each category. If you haven't had such detailed feed-back, you could ask for that.

If you're interested I could give you the info for the other areas (Work Habits, Physical Development, Intellectual Development) too (email or PM). I found it very helpful to get this feedback on Abbie.

IMO, it sounds as though your daughter would do well in K. Her behaviour socially doesn't seem to me that it would be a problem. I would lean towards starting her, and like you said you can always move her back or repeat it. September is a long way off - kids change so much in 6 months! You could always use the Summer to expose her to some new things and see how she handles it (eg VBS, a sports camp...). I do agree that social readiness is a big deal for starting K. Here in Ohio, as other people have said, they are doing so much more in K. The classroom is VERY structured and very much "desk" time oriented, no crafts or art (only colouring pages!). Which does seem a little sad - these kids are only five!! :yuck:

Anyway, HTH! I have so many of the same feelings as you...

 

[wickednoodle]

I also have a daughter whose birthday is 8/28. She is only 3 right now, but I've already been thinking about this issue as it will be here before I know it. I'm an October girl, and I feel that I could have benefited a great deal from having one more year to mature; having said that, everyone is different. You know your daughter best, so go with your gut and what you feel is best. One thing to think about is that it will be much easier on her - in terms of her peers and any possible ridicule - now than it would be in a few years when she will understand better that she's repeating a year.

Hope that helps - good luck and let us know what you decide!

 

[janetupnorth]

I just had discussions with my daughter's 1st grade teacher yesterday. DD is top in her class and a May birthday and no worries.I've ALWAYS been on the side of "let them play one more year and be kids".Now though, I'm seeing the curriculum SO moved down. K is full day vs. 1/2, 1st grade material is in K, 2nd in 1st grade on up. Mainly due to the fact that EVERYONE seems to be putting their kids in Preschool or Pre-K.I didn't want either kid to go to preschool - didn't think they needed it but now I have a 4 year old who still has a full year before K (he has a Dec. birthday so will be 5 years and 8 months starting kindergarten). He REALLY wants to go to school and is already learning a lot at home.I'm toying with the idea of sending him 2 days a week 8-11 a.m. just due to that fact that HE keeps begging and wants to go. I think he'll go nuts waiting another year with sister in school...Sigh...decisions, decisions. Of course I KNOW I won't send him 5 days...that part of the decision is easy. (Cost-wise and transportation-wise).

 

[ChefBeckyD]

I just had discussions with my daughter's 1st grade teacher yesterday. DD is top in her class and a May birthday and no worries.

I've ALWAYS been on the side of "let them play one more year and be kids".

Now though, I'm seeing the curriculum SO moved down. K is full day vs. 1/2, 1st grade material is in K, 2nd in 1st grade on up. Mainly due to the fact that EVERYONE seems to be putting their kids in Preschool or Pre-K.

I didn't want either kid to go to preschool - didn't think they needed it but now I have a 4 year old who still has a full year before K (he has a Dec. birthday so will be 5 years and 8 months starting kindergarten). He REALLY wants to go to school and is already learning a lot at home.

I'm toying with the idea of sending him 2 days a week 8-11 a.m. just due to that fact that HE keeps begging and wants to go. I think he'll go nuts waiting another year with sister in school...

Sigh...decisions, decisions. Of course I KNOW I won't send him 5 days...that part of the decision is easy. (Cost-wise and transportation-wise).

DS goes 2 days a week, 12:30-3. He was also begging to go to school. Every time we would pass a school, he would say "There's a school Mom, just drop me off." He is in 3 yr old preschool. Next yr, he will be in 4 yr old preschool, but we have a choice between a 2,3, or 4 day program. We are leaning heavily towards staying with the 2 day program.

Part of our decision to send him though, was that he is an only child, and we felt like he did need some socialization.

 

[JAE]

DS goes 2 days a week, 12:30-3. He was also begging to go to school. Every time we would pass a school, he would say "There's a school Mom, just drop me off." He is in 3 yr old preschool. Next yr, he will be in 4 yr old preschool, but we have a choice between a 2,3, or 4 day program. We are leaning heavily towards staying with the 2 day program.

Part of our decision to send him though, was that he is an only child, and we felt like he did need some socialization.

...just drop me off? What a silly boy! Say "hi" to him for me.

 

[Shawnna]

My youngest is going to Jr. High next year, but I have a friend who has a daughter in Kindergarten this year. She told me the other night that they are putting glass partitions and doors in the entryway of the lower elementary building so that you can't get in without the administrator...so I am assuming these will be locked doors inside the building which scares me because of fire issues. But she also told me that next year you would not be allowed to go inside with your child. You will have to drop them off at the curb. For one thing, there is a small parking lot that you circle through...one way...and back onto the street. Traffic is already crazy there. I believe that you should always check in with the administrator when arriving at school, but I also believe that you should be able to observe from outside what your child's teacher is doing...the administrator can walk you to the classroom and not announce you before-hand. I do not believe in disrupting the class, but there are times when you might want to make a "surprise" visit to see how things work. An announced visit will not get you the same results. While most teachers are great, I know that some people should not teach children and some teachers who were wonderful at one time, need to retire because they have lost that true "calling". It is really sad when teachers don't even like children.

Janet, thanks for the site...I am going to check it out now.


ETA: I do want to say that I appreciate our teachers. I firmly believe that they are under-paid for what they do...they are training the future leaders of our nation. While we all know that there are some bad teachers out there, when you get one of the good ones your child is so blessed. Teachers have a lot on their plate, classrooms are over-crowded and they do not have enough classroom help for all of the extra stuff our government is putting on them. Be sure that you are praying for your child's teachers every day.

 

[janetupnorth]

My daughter goes to a private Lutheran school. I take her in the school and up to the classroom each day. In fact, they ENCOURAGE it so they can communicate with the parents. The preschool there which DS may attend next year REQUIRES that you drop your child off in the classroom.I hope the rights of private schools like this don't decrease...During the day, they do lock the doors and you have to ring and have someone open the door - that is for security purposes so not anyone walks into the school. I don't mind that because I don't want a stranger walking in mid-day where my DD is...