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Only in California, LOL--what do I say?

Nanisu

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Here's a recap to date of this issue:

September: Emma goes to Anna's show. Orders $50+ worth to stuff, books her own show for the 25th of October. Expresses an interest in signing up. Will meet with me in 3 days. 3 days later is very excited, wants to sign up the next week when her DH gets paid. Next week comes to a meeting with Mary Grant--very excited. Ready to sign up!

October 1: Hitch in the gitalong--Emma has no ss# because she is undocumented. Calls me to sign up and says, no problem, she will use Anna's ss#. I tell her that PC would not honor that and by the way if there is ever a liability issue she would be in deep trouble because PC would be insuring Anna, not her.

Called PC and they tell me to tell her to get an ITIN--basically a taxpayer # for undocumented workers so that they can pay taxes (to which, my first thought is SURE THEY WILL). She goes down to get the ITIN and she does qualify as a dependent of someone who has a SS# (her husband), but she must show his w-2 from last year. Which of course, he has none because he gets paid under the table.

October 12: She and Anna come to the consultant meeting. Anna says to me :Why can't I sign and she just do the shows? ". To which I respond, as before, PC can't let you do that because of liability issues, and I in all honesty can't do that either. She says ok. Emma still wants to do her PC show on the 25th to get free products.

October 13: I call Emma today to give her the ingredients. She brings up the W-7 issue again (which is the form you fill out to actually GET the ITIN), but says she can't get it because her husband didn't get a W-2 last year because he got paid under the table. At that point I tell her that I don't know what else to advise her, but I would show to do her her party on the
25th.

October 13 (just now) Emma just called me back and says "Anna is thinking of signing up". Yeah, I bet she is--she can barely walk. And then Emma asks me "If Anna signs up today, can she still do my party on the 25th instead of you? You were going to do it and let me submit it, so can we just let her sign up instead?" I ask Emma "well, how is Anna going to submit the orders? She doesn't have a computer? And how is Anna going to get to the shows? She doesn't drive a car anymore (diabetes)." Of course the answer is "well, I would drive her". Oh yeah, did I mention that Emma has no driver's license either?

Clearly Anna is going to sign up and let Emma do her shows--which I can't, in all conscience, be a part of. But how do I say this? The clincher? Emma wants to know "even though I am not signing up, can I still come to the meetings (i.e. can I get training for a job I don't intend to really have?).

Ok, what to do to end this?

Nancy
 

Jolie_Paradoxe

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Ask her to find just one source of her husband's income, or have her call the place that issues ITIN and ask what to do in the event of no W-2. Anna's motivated, get her on your team!!!
 

Nanisu

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Great theory, but no, ANNA is not motivated. Clearly Anna plans to sign up (Anna has the ss#, not Emma) so that Emma can do the shows. Sorry--maybe I didn't make that clear. Emma, who wants to be the consultant cannot get an ITIN because her husband has NEVER paid taxes--he's been a bartender over the years and always gotten paid under the table. Anna is just "lending" her SS# to Emma.
 

rennea

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The whole situation stinks!! Just be honest to both ladies that you are not comfortable with breaking the law. Let Anna know that PC checks S.I.N numbers and that Anna will be responsible for paying the taxes. Who in their right mind would lend somebody their SIN number??
 

raebates

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I'm with Rennea. I am not at all comfortable working with people who intentionally break the rules. I'd tell them both that. And, there is no way I'd be a part of helping someone to sign up in that situation.
 

raebates

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Nanisu, I just got the following in an email. If either of those women want to do anything at all, here are ten ways to say no.

I'd love to, but...

I have to floss my cat.

I've dedicated my life to linguini.

I want to spend more time with my blender.

The President said he might drop in.

The man on television told me to say tuned.

I've been scheduled for a eyelash transplant.

I'm staying home to work on my cottage cheese sculpture.

It's my parakeet's bowling night.

It wouldn't be fair to the other Beautiful People.

I'm building a pig from a kit.


Hope it helps. ;)
 

Jolie_Paradoxe

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Apr 15, 2009
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LOL Nanisu....I did understand, and meant to type Emma. Sorry. I do not mean for you to encourage or agree to Emma....sorry, both four letter names that end in an "a". :)

I still think you should have Emma check to see how she can get an ITIN number if her husband has no W2's. There must be a way, and if she is motivated to be a PC rep....she'll jump through the hoops and red tape to get that ITIN. But definitely do not sign Anna.
 

Nanisu

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Ok: Update:

Anna called and "wants to become a consultant--I've come with Emma to the meetings and it looks like something I could do. I need to get out of the house". Now, in my heart I know that what will happen is that Anna will sign up, and Emma will do the shows. But I can't prove that, and I don't know how to say I know that's what they are doing without sounding accusitory. And I can't exactly accuse someone of potentially breaking the rules.

The show on the 25th would of course, then go to "Anna". I did volunteer to do Emma's first show for her if she signed, so of course now they are expecting me to do the same for "Anna"--basically coming and working for free. I would get my override.....what a dilemma. I told my dh I should just tell Anna that I would only sign her if I could come to her first 4 shows to see how she's doing....but once again, that sounds accusing. The whole thing is difficult, as a Christian I absolutey cannot expect God to bless my business if I sign someone under false pretenses, but I don't know how to get out of this without sounding judgemental.

Emma's DH now does NOT want her to get an ITIN. I bet--she's not legal and he's been getting paid under the table. No wonder he doesn't want her to get one--probably afraid of being caught.

Oh man, I hate this. I have not called Anna back, it's too late. Thank God I was at the gym when she called. Not sure how to get out of this.
 

AJPratt

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Oct 11, 2005
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It does sound pretty fishy.

Well, if it were me would I would just say that I always attend my consultants' first 4 shows and help out. Then, you can be there and see what is going on. Anna may just turn out to be a good consultant.

If you want to get out of this, just don't return their calls and just let it drop.

They haven't paid any taxes at all? No tax return?
 

Nanisu

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They haven't paid any taxes at all? No tax return?

Umm....welcome to California--why do you think we'er in such a pickle, LOL. There are a LOT of "undocumented" aliens around (90 % of them hispanic) that feel free to use our welfare system to feed and clothe their children, and give them free lunches at school and free medical care and don't bother to pay a bit of taxes. Most of them have 2 or 3 different names and more than 1 social security #.

I emailed my exec to ask her what I should do--should I just sign this person and grit my teeth and let the chips fall where they may? And if I do go to her first 4 shows, I don't speak enough spanish to know what they are saying, so who's to say they are not talking about me or what a great deal this was? Plus, the last thing I want to do is go to 4 shows in my busiest month of the year to sit and listen to a group of people not speak my language for 3 hours.

But then again, if I make it clear to Anna that I, based on our conversations, kind of feel uncomfortable about this whole thing, but will help her start her business as long as SHE comes to training (not Emma) and SHE completes the requirements, not Emma, I might be ok. And there is the remotest of possibilities that Anna might, just might, do this. But I don't like feeling like I'm being played.
 

Sheila

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Um, where on the w-7 form does it say that they need the w-2 of the husband? I can't find it!

My first instinct was that she's an illegal immigrant. But I've seen illegal immigrants file for ITIN numbers in the past, so it definitely wouldn't be the first time. The IRS is more interested in getting tax $ out of them than reporting them for being here illegally. (((insert eye roll here)))

Here's the answer that you can give them: "You are both really nice women and I like you a LOT, but not enough to go to jail for you or loose my consultant status with Pampered Chef." ;)
 

NooraK

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Oh Nancy, what a mess!

I think I've seen it posted before that HO will allow someone to sign without a SSN, but HO will then withhold 30% of their commission. Or something like that. I know it's a big number, but it might be worth checking into. It doesnt' hurt to ask.

The other thing is (and I don't really want to throw a wrench into your gears), the W-7 specifically states
Getting an ITIN does not change your immigration status or your right to work in the United States and does not make you eligible for the earned income credit.

I know HO told you to advise her to get the ITIN, but technically that alone doesn't give her the right to work. I'm not sure how that applies in reference to operating your own business, but then again, that's a moot point if her DH doesn't want her to get an ITIN for the fear of being found out.

I think Sheila's answer is great.

Like you said, only in California! :D
 

Nanisu

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Noora and Sheila: Yes, she is illegal--she admits that. Knew that from the start. I called HO, told them that she was "undocumented" (the politically correct term in CA for illegal) and they said they don't ask them their immigration status and as long as they have an ITIN they can sign up. On the w-7 it says in order for them to obtain a W-7 (which is the application to get the ITIN), they must file a tax return. When she told them they didn't file a tax return because her DH didn't work, they said she must file documentation that shows tax status, i.e. a w-2 or w-4. He has neither. So she is not applying for a ITIN.

My issues are threefold: 1) I have a real issue with helping an illegal immigrant get work. They are not supposed to be allowed to work. Yes, they all do, but, employers are not supposed to hire them. Of course, PC would not be her employer. Another day's discussion about that one. 2) They are so clearly bending the e,ployment rules to do this--technically I guess it's no big deal because if Anna signs up and does catalog shows and gives the $$ to Emma, that's her business. But it bugs me that, based on our conversations, it appears that although Anna would "sign up", Emma would be doing the job. But I can't prove that unless I go to her shows with her. I am not willing to do that--I'm busy enough. 3) Would I have any liability here, if something goes wrong? I mean, not legally, because all I am is the vessel to get her signed up and trained, but morally? I can't prove anything. The Bible says if you know something is wrong and you do it or allow it to happen it's sin. Lying is a sin. Cheating the system is a sin. But I can't prove anything.
 

Nanisu

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The IRS is more interested in getting tax $ out of them than reporting them for being here illegally. (((insert eye roll here)))

When I called HO about this last week the lady in finance said "Well, the IRS allows this so that they can pay taxes and file a tax return. I laughed out loud and told her "yes, I'm sure that's high on their priority list. They broke the law to be here and get everything for free-- I'm SURE they are just lining up to pay taxes.". She laughed too and said "well, that's what I have to tell you--the ITIN is to pay taxes."
 

doughmama

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WAIT! why would you go to her first 4 shows? now you are really working for free. If she needs training, she should be going to some of your shows, watching to see how it is done.

and in regard to actually signing her, that is a hard call. not sure what to advise.
 

NooraK

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Here's the answer that you can give them: "You are both really nice women and I like you a LOT, but not enough to go to jail for you or loose my consultant status with Pampered Chef." ;)

I still like this approach the best. In the end I would look at it this way: Do you believe this consultant (whether it be Anna or Emma who signs on the dotted line) is worth the stress it is putting on you. You haven't even signed her, and you're already worrying about things. Even if they jump through the hoops, you go to the first four shows to make sure Anna's doing them, train them, whatever, are you going to stop worrying? If you continue to worry, it's going to affect your attitude in the end, and it'll bleed into the rest of your life. Your family doesn't want you to do that. I don't want you to do that.

In the end, it's just one recruit. Sure, there's always the chance that this will be the next future NED, but what are the chances if she's undocumented? You can't stop her from going online and signing the contract using your information or your PWS, but you can choose how involved you will be in their business. If you set the boundaries at the beginning, there's nothing they can say in the future. And if you stick to your boundaries, and do only what you feel you are comfortable with (such as not siging them because you don't feel right about it, but they do it behind your back), you're not in the wrong.

If you want to talk about it more, just let me know. You've got my number. I'm even happy to just listen if that's what you need.
 

pcchefjane

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At the training I took in Atlanta during the summer, Judy Joel said the new Recruit's Grand Opening is the RECRUITER'S show! You are not expected to do a show for "free".

I 100% agree that it is not right and to sign up Anna knowing she will not be doing the shows herself is wrong. You can explain that HO advised you that Emma must have an ITIN and that to sign her up feeling that Anna is not going to do the shows herself, you feel very uncomfortable. Are they both Hispanic?

Praying there will be a clear way from God on how to handle this!
 

crystalscookingnow

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I take a different approach to my recruits' grand opening shows. I don't DO the show but I am there for them as moral support and to answer any questions that they may not know the answer to.
 

Nanisu

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Well, that's what I would do, too--tell them I will be there, but not actually do the show. The bottom line is, I can't PROVE that Anna will not do the shows, and I am not willing to babysit them. So I think I will go ahead and talk to Anna today and let her know that I feel a little uncomfortable with the situation based on past questions (Can Emma just use Anna's SS#, no. Can Anna sign and Emma do the shows? no), but they understand that Pampered Chef requires that ANNA actually do the shows (maybe I'll find the part in the business guide about consultant actually doing the shows and photocopy it), that if there is an issue ANNA is responsible, and let it go at that. As far as Emma tagging along to cluster meetings with Anna, not much I can do about that. Maybe Emma will like this so much it will spur her on to actually GET an ITIN.

HO doesn't do anything about kitnappers, this is tatamount to about the same thing. I can't prove anything. And they are determined, so if I don't sign them someone else will.
 

Becca_in_MD

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Sure, there's always the chance that this will be the next future NED, but what are the chances if she's undocumented?

If Emma is the one doing the shows under Anna's SS#, all rewards go to Anna. This means any career promotions go to Anna. Trips go to Anna. Emma gets no recognition of her work. I've heard of people using their spouse's SS# to sign and then earn a trip. It's easier for the spouse to come along and pretend to be the real consultant or they say they do the shows together. But if Anna can barely walk, is she really going to travel with Emma and how happy will Emma's husband be about that? This, of course, is assuming they make a real go of the biz.

Nancy, you could bless and release and put them into the HO lead system, though they may land in YOUR inbox. This is a toughie!
 

Nanisu

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Ok, talked it over with my Exec, who agrees that I can't PROVE they are doing anything wrong....the upshot is I am going to sign Anna and hand her the page in the Business Guide that talks about CONSULTANTS doing the shows, and make sure she understands about the insurance AND the lack of possibility of advancement for Emma--that any recruits, etc would all be under Anna. I will do the show on the 25th, and I will train ANNA, not Emma. Let the chips fall where they may. Who knows, maybe Emma will catch the vision and want this so bad that she figures out how to get a legit SS# or ITIN #. Sigh.....
 

raebates

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Best wishes, Nancy. I hope these two surprise you and wind up both being great consultants.
 

Christ Follower

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Ahhh...from one Cali girl to another I TOTALLY know how this goes! Good luck!

By the way...she CAN sign up and NOT give a SS#. I have someone on my team that did this so she wouldn't get nailed on her taxes at the end of the year. The company takes 50% out of every check and she is perfectly content with that. She is a single mom in the AF so that's the way she just wanted to do it.
 
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That might be a point to tell share with them. Good Luck!!!
 

Nanisu

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Wow! I called and talked to TWO people in finance last week and NO ONE told me that! I wonder if they changed the policy? I'm going to call and ask them.

Talked to Anna today and she 100% assured me that she would be doing all the shows--didn't say anything about Emma going with her, she is signing, and coming to NC training on Monday night, without Emma...at this point without point blank accusing them of lying, there's not much else I can do.
 

pcchefjane

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Hmmm...that is interesting! Hopefully if it is a "kitnapper" thing, the training will scare her off. Can you mention that to whoever is leading the training to mention the "obligation to PC" for 4 shows, etc.?
 

Nanisu

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I didn't tell her 4 shows--I told her $1250 which is the new requirement as of Jan. 1 of this year. And I'll reinforce it tomorrow when she signs up.
 

Jolie_Paradoxe

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My issues are threefold: 1) I have a real issue with helping an illegal immigrant get work.

This answers your question....you should not sign them. It isn't fair to you, and it won't work for your team or Anna or Emma.

Just tell them you are not comfortable, and that they need to go through PC.com for every thing.

Noora is right...it is not worth the stress. Your concerns will never be at rest. Let them find their own way, let them find someone else.
 

Jolie_Paradoxe

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Whoops....just read your resolution....guess you're going forward....lots of luck. Hope it works out great!
 

micocina

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Yeah, what if Emma becomes successful doing PC? Who are you and PC going to recognize.... Anna? I think that this is too much drama that you really don't need. Just tell Anna that you are not comfortable and if SHE is really interested in joining PC then perhaps she should do so signing up under another consultant. Give Anna the HO # so they can refer her to someone else. Remember... we choose who we want to work with.
 

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