Do You Mail the Invites for Hosts?

[ChefJoyJ]

Since I'm trying to get my ducks in a row...and my host packets in order for my Jan hosts (and ready to deliver), I got to thinking. Do you mail the invites for the hosts? Why? Does it benefit you in the long run? (ie, do the benefits outweigh the costs?)

I have 5 cooking shows lined up for Jan, so far, which means I *will* qualify within my first 30 days(!!) and if all of them invite at least 40 people...then that's 200 or more invites to send. That's $38 in postage. How do I convince DH that it is a justifiable cost?

My director has the hosts mail the invites out, but I remember seeing on here that several people did (and did not) mail them out for the hosts. I was just curious what all the PC "gurus" on chef success did and any advice on the topic you could give me.

Thanks so much!! :chef:

 

[JAE]

I mail out the invitations. It seems to be working for me.
I just have one host who has trouble getting to the mailbox. Don't know what that's about. She already rescheduled once. I'm not going to give her much of a chance to take a date from me in January. I'll have to call her again to make sure she sends me the guest list before Christmas or I'll open her date up for someone else.
There are nice ways to go about doing that, and I would suggest you get the guest list at least 3 weeks ahead of time because you need to send out invites 2 weeks ahead of time. Some people require 4 weeks ahead or they give the date away. I may start doing that, but at this point I'm not that busy.

 

[heatherkiss]

Hosts like to do thier partI absolutely do not mail out for hosts.:thumbdown: If they want to have a party they can send out the invites.:grumpy:

I do print out the online PC invites and mail it to the hosts.:angel:

Heather

 

[Kitchen Diva]

I mail invites out for the hosts. It's just another service I offer...like sarcasm.
I also average $720.00 per cooking show- so it pays for itself. On the few occassions that I left the invites up to the host, we had very low turn out, and lower sales. Still over $500.00 but since my personal goal is $700.00 per show minimum, I was bummed. Okay, that just made me sound like a snob...sorry about that!! :blushing:

 

[c00p]

I've been mailing out the invitations for most of 2007. Yes, it can get expensive at times, but of course, all of it will be written off. However, my hosts have REALLY appreciated it and my attendance is higher now that I do this too. For me it works. And since my hosts all express how much they really do appreciate it, they'll repeat with me and refer me. So yes - it's totally worth it!!

 

[Kitchen Diva]

I've been mailing out the invitations for most of 2007. Yes, it can get expensive at times, but of course, all of it will be written off. However, my hosts have REALLY appreciated it and my attendance is higher now that I do this too. For me it works. And since my hosts all express how much they really do appreciate it, they'll repeat with me and refer me. So yes - it's totally worth it!!

There, Andrea said what I was trying to say, and in a much less Princesseee way than I did. Thanks, Andrea.

 

[ChefBeckyD]

When I first started - the most stressful thing for me was wondering, even after host coaching, if the show was going to actually hold. I quickly got tired of last minute cancellations, and shows where 1-2 people would show up....and then the host would hand back a whole packet of invitations...:grumpy: I went to a Training Seminar by the Lemonade Lady - Christie Northrup - and one of the things she recommended was mailing out invitations. I was willing to try anything - so I gave it a shot, and I've never looked back or regretted it!My show avg. went way up....mostly because my attendance went way up - and my cancellations became almost nonexistent! I now know far enough in advance if a show is going to cancel - and have time to rebook the date, other than for emergency type cancellations. Even those though, still hold, because they realize I have already put time and money into their show - so they are willing to reschedule quickly. My hosts love it, and I have a very loyal following of repeat hosts - I have many who host at least once a year. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that I respect that they are busy, and so I make it very easy for them to host. In fact, I have many of their guest lists on file on my computer, and when they get ready to host a show, I email them their list, they update it for me, and email it back to me! How easy is that?
I think it's the care and service like that, that keeps my hosts loyal!ETA - I was 6 months into my business when I started mailing the invitations.

 

[sfdavis918]

I just started sending out the invites for my hosts. I have definitely seen an increase in the attendance. I also agree with Becky, I no longer worry about last minute cancellations. If I don't have the guest list within 2-3 weeks of the show (depending on when they booked their show) then I know that date is available for someone else. I definitely think it is worth it.

 

[lkprescott]

How do you get the addresses from the host then? I've got a show coming up in January. The host asked about invites and I thought I'd started the send out invites for the host thing so I told her to get me names and addresses and I haven't heard anything back since. I offered once for one of my friends and she said she didn't even have addresses for half the folks she was inviting, just phone numbers. What do you tell a host who says that? I'm trying to transition to mailing out invites but what about hosts who like handing them out personally or don't give addresses?

 

[bsaxman]

I do mail the invites, but does anyone else have a problem actually getting the host to give you the guest list with the names and addresses!? It is like pulling teeth for me sometimes! *sigh*

 

[ChefBeckyD]

How do you get the addresses from the host then? I've got a show coming up in January. The host asked about invites and I thought I'd started the send out invites for the host thing so I told her to get me names and addresses and I haven't heard anything back since. I offered once for one of my friends and she said she didn't even have addresses for half the folks she was inviting, just phone numbers. What do you tell a host who says that? I'm trying to transition to mailing out invites but what about hosts who like handing them out personally or don't give addresses?

I always include in my host packet several postcard invites, so that the host has some to hand out. I tell them those are for the people they may see regularly but don't have addresses for, or for people they may think about inviting after giving me their guest list.Here is the info I include in the host packet - with instructions on mailing or emailing me their list. I also give them a call a couple days before their list is due to remind them!Also - I print the host letter and the show planner on bright paper!

 

[RebelChef]

Maybe it's a privacy issue for some people? Like email addresses, they don't want to divulge their friends' mailing addresses so they can't be blamed for 'junk mail'.

 

[pamperedgirl3]

I mail out the invitations & have been doing so for almost 2 years. In that time, I've had very few cancelled shows. Most of them I knew about ahead of time because I didn't receive the guest list. I put a guest list in the host packet with a stamped envelope. I do put a due date on there & starting next year, anyone who doesn't give me a guest list by the due date will have to reschedule her show. I'm tired of waiting until the day before I want to mail them to get them in the mail & then I have to rush to get them out in time.

I've also noticed an increase in my show attendance. I also like the peace of mind knowing they went out & when. My hosts have all said they really enjoy not having to do it--just one of the services I offer to hosts. I also buy the food for the show & they reimburse me.

 

[stacywhitlow]

I also offer to mail out the invites and make reminder calls. Most of my hosts take me up on that offer. I have had some that didn't give phone # but did give me a list. I have a sheet for them to fill in that includes name, address, phone & email.

 

[quiverfull7]

Does anyone have a guest list like this in excel or a database format? I could make one but I'd much rather borrow from someone who has already done one!

 

[pamperedlinda]

I started mailing the invites last year and I will never stop! My show attendance and average have gone WAY WAY up! I've only had one cancellation after the I received the guest list (host broke her leg the day before the party) and my hosts really appreciate it. I've never had anyone not want to give me their address list either. I do have several hosts who want to invite via e-vites and I have them do that part themself. It's so easy, if you have never done this I suggest that you give it a 3-month trial and see how much your business improves.

 

[chefann]

I've been doing it lately. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to get addresses from the hosts, as far as physical sheet. I like the HO form because the host can keep a copy, but I've found that most of my hosts have larger handwriting than it can accomodate, and tend to put things in the wrong spots anyway.

Has anyone had success with an electronic form? At least for the hosts who are computer-savvy? I'd love to be able to send them something via email, get it back, and then use that to run labels without having to type it in myself.

 

[quiverfull7]

That's exactly what I'm hoping for too Ann... at least for some or most... I have been printing the invites for my hosts all year but then giving them to them to mail and I am thinking that I want to start out 08 with mailing them as well but I want it as streamlined as I can make it.

 

[finley1991]

I've been sending them for 4 years now. Will NEVER stop doing it. In the past 4 years, only TWICE have I not received the list from the host and the show was cancelled. It DEFINITELY cuts down your cancellation rate!

There are a couple of things that I do that work in helping to get the host to give me the guest list. First a foremost, every single one of my hosts and guests know that I take what I do seriously and that this is the only way I earn an income. With that, I don't make it optional for her whether or not she wants to give me a guest list.

Here is what I say, "Great! We've set your date as xxx. What's going to happen next is I'm going to send you a guest list form. Go ahead and fill it out right on the form and either e-mail it to me or fax it, whichever is best. When I get it from you, I'll send all of your invitations for you so you won't have to worry about that part. After I get your guest list back, you'll get from me your host packet that will have everything you need in it to have a successful show. Then we'll plan a fun menu so you'll have great party."

It's not optional. She wants a show with me, she gives me her guest list. Also, she doesn't get anything from me... no menu choices, no outside order forms and catalogs...nothing... until I get the guest list. If they ask for all of that, I will tell her that she gets it when I get her guest list. That way I'm not out lots of catalogs. One December before I sent the invitations for my hosts, I had 8 shows cancel and lost over 30 catalogs. I was bummed.

Lastly, don't be afraid to take charge of how you do things. This is YOUR business... YOU run it... NOT your hosts! Good luck!

 

[quiverfull7]

And the form you send them Colleen... can you post it here? or is it the same as has already been shared?

 

[finley1991]

Here you go!

 

[quiverfull7]

Thanks! Okay... do you all hand write the addresses or do you print labels?
I have arthritis in my hands and writing for very long gets very painful so I'm
trying to streamline without pain.

 

[finley1991]

I do a flyer invitation and mail it in envelopes. I print the address ... cut & paste... onto the envelope not labels. I also put the host's address as the return address for 2 reasons: 1. most people are more likely to open something from someone they know and 2. if the address is incorrect it gets returned to the host, not me, so she knows that someone didn't get it.

I do know that some consultants send a label word document for their hosts to fill in.. that might make it easy on you.

Also, I keep all of my guests list in a folder in my computer so when they rebook, I send them back their original for them to update. Makes it super easy!

 

[sburnside]

I didn't mail invites at first but now I do for every show. Like others have said, it's worth the money because attendance is higher plus you know the host is serious about having the show. The cost is minor when you take into account the higher show sales.

 

[wadesgirl]

I don't always send my invites for my hosts. I do give away free kitchen shows that include sending the invites. I don't really notice a difference between the two. I haven't had a canceled show since this summer and in that case, it probably wouldn't have mattered if I did send the invites, the host refused to answer any of my phone calls after the first initial host coaching call.

If I was doing Pampered Chef full time and not working, I would probably send out all the invites. Sometimes I have a hard enough time with the shows that I do send out.

I do have a template set up in Word that I type all the show information and a spot above the address area that says the guest special that month and my website info saying they can order on host's show through my website. Then I had write the addresses to give it a personal touch.

 

[quiverfull7]

Wonderful! Thanks so much! I think I could cut and paste onto the postcard invite that I'm already printing and put their return address on there as well. Thanks so much for your help. I want to start the new year off this way so I better get cracking!

 

[chefann]

Here's an Excel file I just threw together. You could email it to hosts and then use Mail Merge in Word to print labels, or you could cut and paste.

You can also print a copy and hand it to hosts with instructions like what Becky and Colleen posted above.

 

[lacychef]

I'm like some others; I've been doing this for over 2 years & don't plan on going back to NOT sending them.
I feel more in control with my biz. I've had fewer cancellations, higher guest attendance (if they give me a small guest list I encourage thinking of more people), which leads to higher sales & comission!
I use the 3-part forms from HO. The host gets a copy, I use the sticky ones on the ivites so they are still handwritten, & the last copy I keep for the host's next show. That last part has already helped with a couple shows; they already had a jump start on their guest list from their last show.
Love doing it.....the postage is a tax write-off & you make that back so much more in comission....and I've never had a problem getting the guest lists--they are just told from the beginning that's how it works.

 

[ChefJoyJ]

What great advice from all of you! Sounds like sending out the invitations for your hosts has been very successful for many of you. I definitely think that I will plan on doing this as I start my new business. I like the idea of knowing how many invitations are sent out (and that they even got sent out).

Colleen - I like the idea of getting the guest list before giving them the host packet - this way you know they are serious before you are out the packet and any catalogs.

They still RSVP to the host right? Do you make the reminder calls or do you have the host?

 

[JAE]

I don't make reminder calls because I don't want to spend that much time on my business. I do call the host and tell her to call everyone. I say that with each host call. I also put a date on the postcard to RSVP by. Then the host knows when to start calling. In my first host coaching call or e-mail, I tell the host to start telling people about her show now so the invite is only a reminder.
With the extra incentive in January, it will be a great month to really practice firm host coaching. Every host will want the extra free product, and it will be hard for them if they don't take our advice. We have to do our job, and then they will know they have to do their part in order to get up to $500.

 

[finley1991]

They still RSVP to the host right? Do you make the reminder calls or do you have the host?

Yes... they RSVP to the host. I will offer to make reminder calls every now and then but usually not.

Also, on the flyer I have a couple of things:

1. I address the envelope to Mary Smith & Guest
2. On the flyer it says that there will be an on-time drawing. I give away free shipping. My shows start at 7:00pm and I do the drawing at 7pm and normally start my demo no later than 7:20pm. I'm usually on my way home by 9:15 - 9:30 at the latest.
3. At the bottom it reads, "Unable to attend? We'll miss you! Place your order on my website by xxxx."

Hope that helps!

 

[pamperedlinda]

Yes... they RSVP to the host. I will offer to make reminder calls every now and then but usually not.

Also, on the flyer I have a couple of things:

1. I address the envelope to Mary Smith & Guest
2. On the flyer it says that there will be an on-time drawing. I give away free shipping. My shows start at 7:00pm and I do the drawing at 7pm and normally start my demo no later than 7:20pm. I'm usually on my way home by 9:15 - 9:30 at the latest.
3. At the bottom it reads, "Unable to attend? We'll miss you! Place your order on my website by xxxx."

Hope that helps!

Since we all want to be like you Colleen.....will you post one of your flyers please?

Thanks!

 

[jrstephens]

Colleen,

Just a curious question. If you have an ontime drawing at 7, why does your show not start until 720? What do you do between 7 and 720. Just curious.

 

[chefann]

In a related question (for everyone...) if you do send the invites, what do you send and how has it affected your sales?

This fall, I started sending the mini catalogs as invitations, working on the theory that they are a) less likely to be lost than postcards; b) more likely to be noticed; and c) product info in their hot little hands, even if they can't come, makes guests more likely to place an order. However, I haven't noticed a significant increase in my sales (which could be caused by the economy or by my irregular show schedule making it hard to properly analyze the data).

Because of the lack of results, I'm considering changing to flyers in envelopes as a way to reduce costs. They'd be b/w copied onto color paper, to keep costs down. Does anybody use something simple like that and how has it affected your attendance and ordering?

 

[ChefJoyJ]

In a related question (for everyone...) if you do send the invites, what do you send and how has it affected your sales?

Because of the lack of results, I'm considering changing to flyers in envelopes as a way to reduce costs. They'd be b/w copied onto color paper, to keep costs down. Does anybody use something simple like that and how has it affected your attendance and ordering?

Ann - I have similar questions. I have thought of flyers, too. However, you have paper costs, copying costs, increase in postage (from postcards to envelopes). Would there actually be a noticable difference in costs compared to purchasing the postcards from HO? For those that mail something other than postcards...have you noticed it being worth it (as in increasing your sales/attendance) as opposed to the postcards?

Anyone care to post a copy of what they mail?

 

[wadesgirl]

Ann - I have similar questions. I have thought of flyers, too. However, you have paper costs, copying costs, increase in postage (from postcards to envelopes). Would there actually be a noticable difference in costs compared to purchasing the postcards from HO? For those that mail something other than postcards...have you noticed it being worth it (as in increasing your sales/attendance) as opposed to the postcards?

Anyone care to post a copy of what they mail?

For some of these issues, we get a great discount card for Office Max that you can print off CC. It cuts the price of black and white copies down the 3 cents and the last time I bought a ream of card stock, it cut the price down by a 1/3. I've always had good luck with the discounts that way. Saves me a lot of money.

 

[sfdavis918]

For some of these issues, we get a great discount card for Office Max that you can print off CC. It cuts the price of black and white copies down the 3 cents and the last time I bought a ream of card stock, it cut the price down by a 1/3. I've always had good luck with the discounts that way. Saves me a lot of money.

Don't forget FedEx Kinko's too. You can upload your documents online and have them printed so you just have to pick them up at the store. The quality is way nicer than what you can do yourself there. You can even have them delivered to you. I love it! It makes it really easy with small childeren that have to be lugged in and out of the car!

 

[pamperedval]

Ann and Joy,

Since September I have switched to the full page flyer invite over the postcards. For lots of the reasons that Ann mentioned - they don't get lost easily, they make it seem like more of a party than a place to come spend their money, you can fit more info on them etc.

I got some from Shellye Andrus (a senior director from PA who I met at conference and who swore that they really made a difference to her business and the cost was worth it). I'll try to attach one that I tweaked for one of this season's themes. Shellye does a lot of her own themes and just lets hosts pick which theme they want. I had luck offering the three that HO came up with...

I like using them because I can email it to the host and they can forward it or print some off themselves if they want. I also have mailed them in full sized envelopes with the hosts address as the return address and hopefully people are more likely to open them and post them on their fridge or something. They also say that if you bring two adult guests not already invited I'll give them 10% off their order. (I only had to "pay out" once on this, but it gives more incentive to bring extra guests and I come out ahead with just one guest...)

I am not sure how I will continue in the new year - I think I will stick with the flyers, but I might let my hosts be responsible for sending them out. It might have been a fluke - but when I got lots of names (45-50) and mailed them out myself, the shows had low turnout and weren't that great. And some of my hosts that had smaller lists and handed them out themselves had better turnout and shows... Weird.

Anyway, hope any of this was helpful.

 

[ChefBeckyD]

In a related question (for everyone...) if you do send the invites, what do you send and how has it affected your sales?

This fall, I started sending the mini catalogs as invitations, working on the theory that they are a) less likely to be lost than postcards; b) more likely to be noticed; and c) product info in their hot little hands, even if they can't come, makes guests more likely to place an order. However, I haven't noticed a significant increase in my sales (which could be caused by the economy or by my irregular show schedule making it hard to properly analyze the data).

Because of the lack of results, I'm considering changing to flyers in envelopes as a way to reduce costs. They'd be b/w copied onto color paper, to keep costs down. Does anybody use something simple like that and how has it affected your attendance and ordering?

I tried the mini catalogs.....and then I tried the full page flyer in an envelope. I didn't see any difference in attendance or sales by using those, so I have gone back to using the postcards. I do add some touches to those though.

I print labels with the show info in them, and also something about the theme.

For instance, my labels for a 30 minute chicken show - I use the Real Food Real Fast postcards, and the labels look like this:

THE INCREDIBLE 30 MINUTE CHICKEN SHOW!
Host: Becky Deemter
Time: Thursday, Nov. 15th @ 7pm
Location: 1234 Main St, Grand Rapids 49428
RSVP - Please! by Nov 13th to 616.555.1212

Then, on a label that I put over the PC website I say:

Can't make the Party? We'll miss you,
But you can still join in by ordering online @
www.pamperedxxxx.xxx/cookinwithbecky


Then I also add a sticker from Nancy (don't know what I'll do when I run out!)

"Bring a friend or outside order, and get a gift"

And finally - I handwrite the guest's addresses, and always address them as

"Becky Deemter & Friend"

 

[chefann]

What labels do you use, Becky? I don't like using the 6 to a page shipping labels because they cross over the line between the info area and the address area (I know, it's my OCD kicking in). But having 3 or 4 smaller labels looks bad.

 

[lacychef]

I used the mini catalogs for a long time. I enjoyed how guests came excited about the new products, & those that didn't come usually ordered out of that. I'm now using those for the first few months of the new season, then using color full page flyers, using b/w ink. Something bigger than a postcard so they don't get lost; & the bright colors get noticed.

 

[chefann]

Thanks for the input, ladies. I think I'll use the mini catalogs I have left, and then switch over to flyers on colored paper. In fact, maybe I'll use flyers for some of the fundraisers I have scheduled in January, as I can be a little more specific about how it works.

 

[lkprescott]

Here you go!

That's a great form! I think it's misleading that the host handout from HO only has hosts list name and phone number with no more room for address. It's been hard to convince hosts to handle invite when they see only names and phone numbers 'needed'. I think I'll start using a form like this instead!

Thanks!!

 

[chefjeanine]

This is the format that I currently use for my invitations (However, some of the sizes/fonts didn't transfer when I saved the document for you to see). Sorry, I don’t know how to post it in anything but Publisher.

I've been sending invitations and making reminder calls for over 2 years. If you can afford the postage (it's a write-off) and have the time (I address them while watching TV), I think these are two of the best things you can do for your business. If you haven’t started making reminder calls but are considering this step, I’d suggest calling at about 10:00 a.m. I WANT to get answering machines because it's much faster than talking to people. If my target person is not home and I get someone else, I ask if I may call back and leave a message on the machine. I know this will not work for those of you working outside the home but for you I suggest calling on your lunch break.

Here’s what I say on the answering machine (it seems long but I know it by heart and it goes quick).
“Hello Pam. I’m calling to remind you of Suzie Host’s Pampered Chef Show; it is tomorrow, December 13 at 6:27p.m. I hope you can join us and if you do and bring a friend, neighbor or relative who is not on her guest list I will have a gift for you. If you cannot attend but would like to place an order, get with Suzie or order online on her show through the website listed on the invitation you received. If you have not yet RSVP’d to Suzie, please call her today and let her know whether or not you’ll be able to attend. Thanks so much. Have a great evening and I hope to see your tomorrow.

I stopped sending postcards because they are more prone to getting lost in the mail. I send these full sheet "flyers" taped shut on the long end. If my Host is slow to send me her guest list, I'm fairly confident that I can send these invitations out as late as one week before the show and people will receive them in time to attend.

I do hand address these to "Jane Doe & Guest”. .for me it's as fast as trying to get stuff set up on my computer. Always put your Host's return address -- this way the guest knows who it's from and your Host will be aware if someone did not receive their invitation (it will be returned to the host) and can follow-up.

I love having room for the monthly specials and being able to explain how to order online on the show. I think this has been very valuable to my online show orders.

I don’t give out Host packets until I have received the guest list – there is no show until I have the guest list in my hand. If they book at a show and it’s a close date, I will ask them to take catalogs home with them so they can get people looking. When I get the list they get the outside order forms and a few other pieces that I send. I give them a SASE for return of the guest list and ask for it to be postmarked (when there is time) 3-weeks before the show. If they send me 45 names, addresses and phone numbers, I buy the ingredients for the recipe I'm making.

Thanks for the idea of adding an RSVP date. I'll be doing that from here on out.

 

[quiverfull7]

Do you print these yourself or use our discount at Office Depot?

 

[ChefJoyJ]

wow Jeanine - that sounds great! I like the idea of calling at 10 am (so not to get drawn into conversations) and it sounds like it really works for you! I'm a SAHM, so I can address the envelopes during my DD's naps (that's when I plan to work on my business anyway). You said you tape your flyers shut and don't use enelopes?

I'm getting such great ideas from everyone! I think that I will most definitely be mailing the invites for people. This way, I know that they are being sent out and that they are taking it "seriously". It is my business and means of income, after all. Also, I like the idea that several of you mentioned of not giving the host packet until you get the guest list - another idea I'm planning to implement!

I'm so glad I found this site!! Definitely helps with the feeling of being in business *for* myself, not *by* myself! :chef:

 

[ChefJoyJ]

unfortunately, I can't open publisher - anyone want to help convert? :angel:

 

[chefjeanine]

Do you print these yourself or use our discount at Office Depot?

I print these off myself.

 

[tinat51796]

Before I signed on as a consultant I hosted a show in August. The consultant who did my show (now my director) mailed me the address labels that you can get on the supply order form. they are in 3-ply so the top layer is labels and the other two are copies. She had me mail back the top layer and another one so that she had the list and I kept a copy to use to make reminder calls. She also said that if I gave her 40 names and addresses she would pay to mail the invites...if not I needed to mail a check for the postage with the labels. I didn't get my host packet with catalogs, OOF and extra invites until after she'd received my guest list. I didn't really think anything of it. Since I've signed up we've talked about her host coaching. she said that since she started mailing the invites it has really cut down on cancellations. I'm doing my business the same way and no one seems to have a problem with it. I'm actually sending the labels and a catalog and oof to my January and February hosts this week so that they can get a head start on earning those great host benefits.

 

[heather223]

I send the PC postcards for my shows. I also request that hosts give me email addresses and then I can send an evite for free. With evite I can check and see who is coming and who isn't and I save the cost of mailing the postcard. :chef:

Coleen- do you send a letter when you send the guest list? If you do can you post it? I am not sending/ giving host packets until I get Guest Lists anymore. I have had too many shows cancel.

Also how do you politely tell a host that if you don't get the guest list by a certain date that you will open their date for someone else?