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Politics What I Like About Obama: A Balanced Perspective on the Presidential Candidate

In summary, The conversation involves starting a "What I like..." thread instead of posting on a "What scares me..." thread. The thread is meant to give the other side a chance to be heard and for fair discussion. The person speaking is a supporter of Obama but has previously voted for McCain and Bush. They appreciate Obama's calmness and thoughtfulness in times of crisis, his articulate speaking abilities, and his choice of a competent VP. They also like his focus on helping the middle class and changing things in Washington. They appreciate his reluctance to engage in negative campaigning and his willingness to talk to enemies. They also admire his ability to find common ground with McCain while also pointing out areas of disagreement. Finally, they appreciate that Obama is running
BethCooks4U
Gold Member
13,010
I was going to post on the "What scares me..." thread but thought better of it and decided to start a "What I like..." thread instead. I probably shouldn't even start this thread because we don't need more politics in this forum but I am tired of all the onesided views. This thread is to give the other side a chance to be heard. Some will see some of my comments as bashing McCain/Palin. That isn't my intent but I have to say that is how I view the other political threads that are on this forum when it comes to Obama. Fair is fair. The other side should always be heard.

I will be voting for Obama in November but I would have voted for McCain 8 years ago - I really liked him then - and I did vote for Bush. I have listened to both men and to pundents on both sides. I watch MSNBC and FOX and listen to Schultz, Maddow, Limbaugh and Hannady radio programs. In my heart I feel that we need change and having listened to McCain I don't hear that from him at all. He may have been a Maverick on some issues but I don't see it in this campaign. If experience is so important to our country (as he stated in the debate) why did he pick Palin for VP? She scares me way more than McCain does but that's a whole 'nother thread.


I like that Obama is calm and thoughtful in time of crisis and doesn't rush to judgement without all the facts.

I like that Obama is articulate. It's about time we have a President who is not an embarrassment to the country. I'm not just talking about Bush here. Clinton certainly caused a lot of that too. We need a President that will be respected by our allies and adversaries alike. It is not elitist to expect our leaders to speak intelligently and in full sentences that are thought out before stated.

I like that Obama chose a VP that has good experience to help him with his decision making. It shows that he will surround himself with competent, intelligent people. He is not perfect but Biden is a good choice for this ticket.

I like that Obama is looking out for the middle class and wants to help us directly. Trickle down does not work as has been proven. If we can't spend money the guys on top can't make their millions - these last few weeks have shown that.

I like that Obama is concentrating on changing things in Washington. Obviously the last 8 years have been devistating for our country, especially financially. Our allies have misgivings about us. We owe our adversaries trillions of dollars. It's a mess. We buy everything from China, sent all our jobs there and owe them trillions. And they don't like us very much. We need to get back to where we were economically at the end of the Clinton era.

I like that Obama hesitates to play the negative game. I know that he has put out negative ads but what can he do? If he takes the high road the Republicans and pundents say he's weak and if he responds to negative ads he's playing old politics.

I like that Obama had the strength and grace to actually look directly at McCain in the debate and act like an official that would stand up to our adversaries. In contrast McCain treated Obama with distain and not only wouldn't look at him but also mocked him. Sad that someone at that level would act so childish.

I like that Obama has the strength and grace to say that there are things that he agrees with McCain about. That's diplomacy. He followed the "I agree" statements with detailed information about where they differ and where he thinks McCain is off base. It's a basic business technique. Find something you agree on and then spell out what you see as areas that need change.

I like that Obama is willing to talk to our enemies. Of course that doesn't mean that he will legitimize them. If you don't talk to people you disagree with how can you ever work anything out? If you build a relationship with those you disagree with you gain power.

I like that Obama is running a steady course and isn't coming up with stunts every other day to get the subject off the issues. He has given us specific information about what he will do to work for changes that we need in government and has already proven that he can work effectively with Republicans as well as within his party.

I like that Obama gave substantiative answers in the debate outlining what he'd like to do to change the country's direction to help the middle class and am disappointed that McCain just kept repeating talking points that we have heard over and over in speeches and ads, continually attacking Obama with exaggerated statements instead of giving us a picture of what he would do to change the direction our country is headed.

I like that Obama was honest in saying he didn't know the effect that the current bailout will do to change his programs because we don't know what the real cost will be. He did say that he knows things will not move as quickly as he would like them to. Until the bill is passed no one can know the true effect.
 
I'm still an independent ... but I have to say that you have captured a lot of my thoughts, Beth.

I pretty much stay out of political threads, but just wanted to say that you are certainly not alone in your views.
 
Nice post Beth!!
 
Well said Beth!
 
I like that Obama is looking out for the middle class and wants to help us directly. Trickle down does not work as has been proven. If we can't spend money the guys on top can't make their millions - these last few weeks have shown that.
I've read somewhere that Obama & his wife have only ONE car and McCain has around 13 cars??
 
thank you beth for framing the latest go-round in a positive light!
 
Thank you Beth! I hate to say it, but seeing all of the anti Obama threads has really turned me off lately. I know everyone has their opinions, but it does feel very one sided and very negative. Clicking on new threads and seeing "What scares me about Obama" really puts me in a negative mood, which is not what Chef Success if normally about and that is frustrating. You have articulated what I have been thinking and have been too frustrated with recent politics to want to say. Thank you for taking the time to say this! I applaud you!
 
GourmetGirl said:
Thank you Beth! I hate to say it, but seeing all of the anti Obama threads has really turned me off lately. I know everyone has their opinions, but it does feel very one sided and very negative. Clicking on new threads and seeing "What scares me about Obama" really puts me in a negative mood, which is not what Chef Success if normally about and that is frustrating. You have articulated what I have been thinking and have been too frustrated with recent politics to want to say. Thank you for taking the time to say this! I applaud you!

I couldnt agree more. Well said!
 
Thanks for showing the other side! I'm right there with you!
 
  • #10
GourmetGirl said:
Thank you Beth! I hate to say it, but seeing all of the anti Obama threads has really turned me off lately. I know everyone has their opinions, but it does feel very one sided and very negative. Clicking on new threads and seeing "What scares me about Obama" really puts me in a negative mood, which is not what Chef Success if normally about and that is frustrating. You have articulated what I have been thinking and have been too frustrated with recent politics to want to say. Thank you for taking the time to say this! I applaud you!

Totally agree with you! I had to take a break but made the mistake of posting just a few mins ago on the latest negative-Obama board. Of course people are now jumping up and down all over me. I won't be making that mistake anymore. :yuck:

I can't wait till the election is over.
 
  • #11
susanr613 said:
Totally agree with you! I had to take a break but made the mistake of posting just a few mins ago on the latest negative-Obama board. Of course people are now jumping up and down all over me. I won't be making that mistake anymore. :yuck:

I can't wait till the election is over.

I'm sorry people were jumping on you. I didn't feel your post needed that at all. I knew what you meant.

I did post in the same thread and found myself getting very heated... not against either candidate but against racial topics that come up with this election...

Beth, thanks for posting... I'm becoming more and more undecided with posts I've read on CS and other forums and I just need to go with my gut on election day. Whether it's Obama or McCain, we'll see... but I just wanted to stop by and say thanks for posting a positive political thread on your views.
 
  • #12
We had some positive political threads on the other side too but they got overtaken with opposing viewpoints and rude comments so they ended up being what scares us about the other candidate now.Jessica - study for yourself, don't go by just what you read here or on other forums. Watch the debates. Then turn off the TV before the news media comes on and trust your gut.
 
  • #13
If you think it's bad in here, you should see things at the other message board, where I am a moderator ... I won't post a link to here ... but I will say that in the "current events" area (which I used to call News and Paranoia) they pretty much assume that God is a Republican and if you're not you should be banished for your heresy.That is why I am generally hesitant to post my political views.At least in here, we can agree to disagree and still be friends at the end of the day and exchange recipes.
 
  • #14
That's funny, I find most message boards to be blatantly liberal and if you're conservative you are close-minded.
 
  • #15
Di_Can_Cook said:
If you think it's bad in here, you should see things at the other message board, where I am a moderator ... I won't post a link to here ... but I will say that in the "current events" area (which I used to call News and Paranoia) they pretty much assume that God is a Republican and if you're not you should be banished for your heresy.

That is why I am generally hesitant to post my political views.

At least in here, we can agree to disagree and still be friends at the end of the day and exchange recipes.

Here here... I like to call myself a rupublocrat... I'm a little of both and what I choose from each side is up to me. Now on to more and more positive findings and posts here at CS... I love this place.
 
  • #16
Beth very well said. I am glad to see someone give a positive look into this election. I am a registered Democrat, but have voted both ways.

It is difficult to distinguish with all the political dumping which candidate is best. At this time I will be voting Democratic during this election.

I am not certain I like Sarah Palin, I can't say what it is, but that I don't feel comfortable with her as a possible Vice President. I don't think she is ready for this possible position. I don't know what it is about her other than she doesn't seem ready.

Thanks again.
 
  • #17
Rock on Beth and Gourmet Girl!:)
 
  • #18
It's great that we all have our individual beliefs and thoughts on politics as well as other issues on here. I am actually glad that we can talk about heated issues and still be friends the next day. I don't have any ill feelings towards anyone, and I enjoy getting to read different view points. I don't think most posts are intended to change anyone's mind, because frankly I know what I stand for and what I am going to do no matter what. I would be pretty shallow to be swayed back and forth with every post.
These are the reasons why I will not be voting for Obama and I don't mean to be negative but that's how I feel and since many posted their views on other threads I feel I can post mine here too and give you all something to think about.
*For Abortion
*For sex education and more access to contraceptives by minors and without a parents consent (fornication)
*Also voted against a parents consent or even notifying them of minors having abortions
* Said he will raise taxes
* For evolution “I’m a Christian, and I believe in parents being able to provide children with religious instruction without interference from the state. But I also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I believe in evolution, and I believe there’s a difference between science and faith. That doesn’t make faith any less important than science. It just means they’re two different things. And I think it’s a mistake to try to cloud the teaching of science with theories that frankly don’t hold up to scientific inquiry.” Barak (God holds up to any inquiry, evolution is a theory, the bible is Truth)
*Against the war (Yes war is ugly but sometimes it is necessary when dealing with irrational people who only hate and cannot be reasoned with)

Are these comments meant to offend you, no they are meant to share my view. Nothing more. These are my opinions and how my family views the world. Oh and God is not Republican, God is holy and frankly I don't believe either canidate is godly but the one who holds closer to my bibilcal views will get my vote. That usually tends to be conservative Republican. And no not all democrats are satan worshippers who hate God. In case you are reading into that. LOL

Debbie :chef:
 
  • #19
First off, I am in no way trying to stir the pot.
Debbie, I just wanted to comment on a couple of your points. Thank you for sharing your views in a calm and kind manner.

No one is For or Pro abortion. Obama simply believes that we as woman should have the right to decide. As a pro choice woman there is a big difference between those statements for me.

He is talking about raising taxes on corporate America, not the middle class. He is proposing tax cuts for 95% of the population, (making less than $250,000). When Warren Buffet came out and said that he doesn't pay enough taxes that says something to me. He said that he found out that his employees are paying more than he is and he doesn't think it is right, and either do I.

As far a sex Ed in schools, I have a hard time understanding how it is going to benefit our children by keeping them in the dark. Kids will still have sex, they just may not know the consequences. Of course it is our job as parents to teach then the values we want them to have, but I think the information is necessary too.

I am a little surprised I am even posting this since I stay away from all of the political posts for a reason. Again, I am just sharing my thoughts and views, not trying to stir the pot.
 
  • #20
Presidential Candidate Comparisons - Important Information

2008 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE COMPARISON TALKING POINTS

ISSUE JOHN McCAIN BARAK OBAMA
Favors new drilling offshore US McCain Yes Obama No
Will appoint judges who interpret the law not make it McCain Yes Obama No

Served in the US Armed Forces McCain Yes Obama No
Amount of time served in the US Senate McCain 22 YEARS Obama 173 DAYS
Will institute a socialized national health care plan McCain No Obama Yes
Supports abortion throughout the pregnancy McCain No Obama Yes
Would pull troops out of Iraq immediately McCain No Obama Yes
Supports gun ownership rights McCain Yes Obama No
Supports homosexual marriage McCain No Obama Yes
Proposed programs will mean a huge tax increase McCain No Obama Yes
Voted against making English the official language McCain No Obama Yes
Voted to give Social Security benefits to illegals McCain No Obama Yes
CAPITAL GAINS TAX
MCCAIN 0% on home sales up to $500,000 per home (couples). McCain does not propose any change in existing home sales income tax.
OBAMA 28% on profit from ALL home sales. (How does this affect you? If you sell your home and make a profit, you will pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and would like to down-size your home or move into a retirement community, 28% of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes as part of their retirement income.)
DIVIDEND TAX
MCCAIN 15% (no change)
OBAMA 39.6% - (How will this affect you? If you have any money invested in stock market, IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes if Obama becomes president. The experts predict that 'Higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock market, yet do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.')
INCOME TAX
MCCAIN
(no changes) Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250
OBAMA (reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts) Single making 30K - tax $8,400
Single making 50K - tax $14,000
Single making 75K - tax $23,250
Married making 60K - tax $16,800
Married making 75K - tax $21,000
Married making 125K - tax $38,750
Under Obama, your taxes could almost double!
INHERITANCE TAX
MCCAIN - 0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)
OBAMA Restore the inheritance tax
Many families have lost businesses, farms, ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those willing their assets to loved ones will only lose them to these taxes.
NEW TAXES PROPOSED BY OBAMA
New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet. New gasoline taxes (as if gas weren't high enough already) New taxes on natural resources consumption (heating gas, water, electricity) New taxes on retirement accounts, and last but not least....New taxes to pay for socialized medicine so we can receive the same level of medical care as other third-world countries!!!

You can verify the above at the following web sites:

http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/election/2008/index.html
Taxes: Election Center 2008 - CNN.com

Obama, McCain Question Wall Street Bailout - America’s Election HQ
McCain, Obama Offer Different Visions on Taxes

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/candidates/barack_obama/
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/candidates/john_mccain/
 
  • #21
(Quote) It's a mess. We buy everything from China, sent all our jobs there and owe them trillions. And they don't like us very much. We need to get back to where we were economically at the end of the Clinton era.

Yes, and we are selling all those items from China!
 
  • #22
The abortion issue is a real sticking point for me ... one of the reasons I've gone against my gut and voted for the other party at least once, and DELIBERATELY voted third party a time or two. (I wanted to say, "Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him.") This election, however, is too important to be a one-issue voter, and too important to throw my vote away. Our economy is in dire straits, and I cannot support a candidate who does not comprehend that ...Janet ... I will never post a link to that forum ... mostly because my user name over there is quite different from what it is here ... I will simply say that it is a large Christian forum, and if you do a google search for Christian forums you will find it, though not on the front page.I also have a co-worker who felt the need to publicly berate me over the way she thought I voted in the last election ... and since then I have felt the need to keep it close to the vest in certain settings ....
 
  • #23
Beth,, very well put,, and I could not agree more. I think it is time for a definate change in our country. You have hit the very points that proves to me why I am voting for Obama.
 
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  • #24
ShanaSmith said:
First off, I am in no way trying to stir the pot.
Debbie, I just wanted to comment on a couple of your points. Thank you for sharing your views in a calm and kind manner.

No one is For or Pro abortion. Obama simply believes that we as woman should have the right to decide. As a pro choice woman there is a big difference between those statements for me.

He is talking about raising taxes on corporate America, not the middle class. He is proposing tax cuts for 95% of the population, (making less than $250,000). When Warren Buffet came out and said that he doesn't pay enough taxes that says something to me. He said that he found out that his employees are paying more than he is and he doesn't think it is right, and either do I.

As far a sex Ed in schools, I have a hard time understanding how it is going to benefit our children by keeping them in the dark. Kids will still have sex, they just may not know the consequences. Of course it is our job as parents to teach then the values we want them to have, but I think the information is necessary too.

I am a little surprised I am even posting this since I stay away from all of the political posts for a reason. Again, I am just sharing my thoughts and views, not trying to stir the pot.

Very well said.

I too am glad we can state our opinion here and not be crucified for it - that was not always the case.

I hope that everyone will look at both sides. Not what McCain SAYS Obama will or won't do or how he voted. Not what Obama SAYS McCain will or won't do or how he voted. MOST legislation has other things in it that make a person reject a bill that they would otherwise have voted for, for one thing. When one says something like "Obama will raise everyone's taxes" look it up. See what he really said, not just a sound bite that cuts out the explainations.

Di: The abortion issue is a real sticking point for me too. I have expressed my feelings on other threads and don't want to belabor that. With education and prayer we can reduce the "need" for abortion. I don't think anyone, even pro-choice people (I am ultra pro-life) like abortion or want them.

Response to other postings: None of those issues talked about with yes/no responses are black and white, absolute. There may be a thread of truth in the yes/no answers but it's not absolute.

For instance, Obama resists oil drilling because it's not going to do all that much (as McCain would want you to believe) for one thing we don't have the refineries and they won't be built. He has stated often that he does feel we should do some drilling and some work with neuclear but he wants us to concentrate on alternative energies. Did you know that the other countries don't refine our oil and that some don't even exclusively USE oil? - they use gas technology on some of their cars already.

Another example, Obama did not say he would pull the troops out immediately. He said he wants them out in a responsible way.

You don't have to be in the Senate for long to see the problems - we see them too and aren't there - McCain had YEARS to fix things. He may have voted against the grain a few times but the very things he's saying need changing have been there the whole time he was there. He reached across the aisle and says the Rebublicans have it all wrong and the Democrats are ruining the country. Where does he stand again?

The tax plans have been analyzed and I have seen from several sources that Obama's plan will actually give a lot more tax relief to the middle class than McCain's. Trickle down does not work. Giving tax breaks to the big guys does not trickle down to helping the rest of us. Give US breaks so we can spend and everyone will prosper - that's what Ford did - well Ford wasn't a politician but his model was to pay a good salary to the regular guy and make things affordable for him to buy the products and everyone profits.

In response to the fact that our stuff is made in China: I hate that and cringe whenever I see that sticker or engraving on our products. I have had customers not purchase because of it and I totally understand. We should all let HO know how we feel about that.
 
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  • #25
BethCooks4U said:
In response to the fact that our stuff is made in China: I hate that and cringe whenever I see that sticker or engraving on our products. I have had customers not purchase because of it and I totally understand. We should all let HO know how we feel about that.

I will not comment on the political stuff because ... well... I just do not want to go there...

Anyhow, I too think it is sad that such an awesome American company has so many of it's products made in China BUT! That is not for a lack of Doris trying to get these products manufactured here. American companies would not even talk to her. The Chinese actually listened and made things to her specifications. It's all in her book which I know many of you have read.
 
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  • #26
etteluap70PC said:
I will not comment on the political stuff because ... well... I just do not want to go there...

Anyhow, I too think it is sad that such an awesome American company has so many of it's products made in China BUT! That is not for a lack of Doris trying to get these products manufactured here. American companies would not even talk to her. The Chinese actually listened and made things to her specifications. It's all in her book which I know many of you have read.

You are right. I have read that as well and I don't fault her for that. But in the current environment I think it's important that we let HO know how we feel and what our customers are saying.

She didn't go to China to get lower prices and didn't move the production over there to save money. She went there because people over here wouldn't talk to her. Now that PC is so respected and revered it's time to bring more of it back here. Our stoneware is made here and so are many other things. I was disapointed to see that our first stencil set was made in USA and the new one is made in China so we do need to let our opinion be heard.
 
  • #27
OT - Does any one know the % of our American made products?
 
  • #28
Oh, this is long, please bear with me! And thank you Beth for a forum where I don't feel like I will be talking to a wall.....


I have read several threads that have stated mistruths about both candidates, religion, abortion and more....it's amazing how quickly people will voice an "opinion" and state it as a fact.

I am including a link to Obama's Plan here:

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf

This is a 33 page step by step plan to the things he wants to do should he be elected.

I looked for a similar plan on McCain's site, and there is none. He does have individual links that you can click on -- one by one-- to see his ideas.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/

One thing that struck me as I was perusing the Obama plan was healthcare. Obama wants to make sure that everyone has healthcare, but of their own choosing....this means that if you now have an Employer sponsored plan that they are paying for (or contributing to), you would be able to keep it. You can keep the doctor you work with, the perscription plan you have, the whole kit and kaboodle.

If you do not have insurance, you would be given a choice of options that you could choose from. EVERYONE will have healthcare.

I want to make this one point:

If you were an American right now who didn't have healthcare because you just lost your job and could not afford the Cobra insurance payments, or could not purchase a plan on your own, you would most probably be filing bankruptcy if there was a major health crisis in your life. Bankruptcy. Or worse yet, you would not get the healthcare you needed to keep you alive. This is WRONG.

McCain's plan would give individuals a yearly $2500 tax credit to purchase their own insurance ($5000 for families). Hmmm...under the current deregulated insurance system, I can not even IMAGINE the cost to purchase your own insurance, but I am SURE that it would cost more than $2500 per year!!!

I know that the health insurance that we have now thru my husband's employer cost us $200 per month for our family. With Cobra, it would be $1216 PER MONTH. That is $14,592 a year -- NOT $5000. Where is the extra $9592 coming from? Us. The actual amount could take us down a notch from Middle Class to Lower Class in terms of income. I think that this is what the Republican ticket would like, 2 classes. Those who have and those who have not.

Please check out the plans for yourself and choose wisely. this election not only affects us, but our children and grandchildren directly. I am a Democrat -- my first vote was placed when I was 27, for President Clinton. I have voted Democrat ever since. But regardless of that, I think we need an intelligent person in the White House, full of energy and calm in decision making, someone who can take information from all sides and process it before rushing to judgement. I believe that Obama/Biden are the only smart choice.

One last point --

Ask yourself : Are you better off today than you were 8 years ago? If you are struggling more, have less income, lost your home or investments, worried about how to send your child to college, than there really is only one choice.
 
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  • #29
jwpamp said:
One last point --

Ask yourself : Are you better off today than you were 8 years ago? If you are struggling more, have less income, lost your home or investments, worried about how to send your child to college, than there really is only one choice.

Thanks for your post. You make great points, especially about the insurance issues. One other point about the insurance plan McCain has is that the premiums will be taxed under his plan. We have health insurance provided by my husband's company and we pay $3,380 per year out of pocket for our part of the premiums. Any claims we have are questioned repeatedly by the insurance company. They don't want to pay anything. They do cover the claims eventually but after causing much stress - oh, and we have co-pays and deductables out of pocket on top of that premium cost. I can't afford McCain's plan.

I also agree that the country is becoming the very rich and the very poor - reminiscence of the past before they outlawed, for one thing, monopolies - oh, wait they are allowed again. We need change. Thanks also for posting the link to Obama's plan and for trying to find a transparent plan on McCain's view.
 
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  • #30
I've had the abortion conversation with my mom, as well as the sex ed one. Here's how it went:

Mom: I don't know how you can vote for Obama when he's for ABORTION!
Me: Uh...he's pro-choice.
Mom: Same thing! And if you vote for him, it means you're for abortion. Are you for abortion?
Me: No.
Mom: So how can you vote for him?
Me: Because he gives women a choice. I don't think abortion is the answer, but I am only one person. And if some woman chooses to have one and can live with that, let her and God decide what was right and wrong.
Mom: <grumbling, walking into another room.>

Later that day...

Mom: I like McCain and I especially like Sarah Palin! I don't think sex ed has any place in school.
Me: Right. Where should kids learn about sex and reproduction then?
Mom: From their parents!
Me: Like the talk you and I had?
(Note: we had no talk.)
Mom: (no response)

I get very flustered talking with my mom. One question I'd like to ask (I think...may regret later) how come with more conservative people it always comes down to abortion? Aren't there way more issues than that affecting more people?
 
  • #31
Thanks for the post, Jessica, made me smile!

Oh, I do agree that pro-choice is a hot topic in all election years, but think that it is for more than just the controversy of the issue. I truly believe that it is brought up because those who oppose a woman's right to choose think that we should all feel the same way. If we don't, then we are wrong on all points.

Kind of like "if you are not for us, you are against us". Not true. It's not always that black and white (no pun intended).
 
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  • #32
jwpamp said:
Thanks for the post, Jessica, made me smile!

Oh, I do agree that pro-choice is a hot topic in all election years, but think that it is for more than just the controversy of the issue. I truly believe that it is brought up because those who oppose a woman's right to choose think that we should all feel the same way. If we don't, then we are wrong on all points.

Kind of like "if you are not for us, you are against us". It's not always that black and white (no pun intended).

Well, when the candidates were Bush and Gore I was very torn on who to vote for and was leaning toward Gore, but I voted pro-life because of statements Gore made not because I thought everyone should feel like I do but because I thought that it was a black and white issue. I have not changed my opinion on abortion but I have come to realize that there are other ways to deal with it. Obama has articulated some of those ways. Republicans say "vote for me because I am pro-life" and then nothing changes. Obama said "I am pro-choice but I want to help educate so there are less abortions" (note: not a quote really but a paraphrasing).

Black and white IS an issue in this campaign. That is why the polls are so close. I bet it would already be a runaway election if he was white. What is wrong with us that the color of skin would color who we vote for? This is the 21st century.
 
  • #33
And personally, I am not better off now than 8 years ago. We are making a higher income until my husband was recently cut from full to part time (working only when they need him, no less), but EVERYTHING is more expensive.

8 years ago a gallon of gas cost $1.16. today it is 3 times that....when all along the oil companies are making record billions in profits -- all unregulated.

8 years ago we sent our son thru college with cash. Next year if things stay the same, our 2nd son will be going with student loans (that is only if we are able to qualify for them with the new higher-credit score requirements that are going to be taking effect because of the current financial mess).

8 years ago we were able to take a vacation each year to relax and unwind (pre-PC). This year we took a "Stay-cation" because we couldn't afford to go anywhere. I read a book from the library instead.

8 years ago my husband and I could go out to eat once or twice a week at a nice restaurant to take a break from cooking (I do not like to cook, do PC for the money), now we can go "out to eat" at McDonalds once a week for the break in cooking....UGH!

We as a family are NOT better off than 8 years ago, but I have to tell you that this is nothing compared to the millions of people left homeless in the mortgage foreclosure mess. Deregultation benefits those who have, not those who have not.

My husband said something to me the other day:

"It's like in the movie 'It's a Wonderful Life" when Jimmy Stewart said regarding the run on the bank...."Potter's not selling -- he's BUYING!".

The rich are BUYING when the rest of us are selling (ex: Chase buying WaMu and Buffet - bless his heart-- buying stock in Goldman Sachs). Those who have will have more, the rest of us are screwed.
 
  • #33
I am sorry to be so pessimistic here, and I so don't mean to bring everyone down, but even my host last night said that she couldn't afford gas for her Hummer anymore (oh, those who have). Awww...
 
  • Thread starter
  • #34
Janice, I could have written that last post too. I feel the exact same way.

We are expected to work harder and longer for less and less and pay more and more for everything. Vacation? I could not go to National Conference if my family didn't live in WI and I make that trip about seeing them too. We haven't seen my DH's elderly parents for 2 years because they live in Houston and we live in NC. We can't afford it and they can't travel. Vacation (not visiting family)? Can't remember the last one we took - except the one I EARNED from PC. Oh wait - it was 8 years ago.
 
  • #35
Can't remember the last one we took - except the one I EARNED from PC. Oh wait - it was 8 years ago.
*****************************************************************************

Beth....bahahahahaha!!!

Honestly, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad!
 
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  • #36
Actually a lot of the problems we have today are from past administrations. Clinton's administrations forced the banks to lend money more freely to everyone. This was to help stimulate the economy. It just delayed the problems which started when a lot of our jobs moved to Mexico and now China. Our jobs going to China began with Reagan. He moved to build power plants in China - where he made millions doing speaches after he was no longer president. Jobs moving to Mexico also started w/the NAFTA which began w/republicans but was signed by Clinton. I don't believe either side really knows how to run the economy and there is too much special interests.

I do believe we have a health care problem in this country; however, government being involved is not the way to go. Let's ask some of our Canada friends here. I think the government can help by giving tax breaks to companies who provide health care to their employees. This would help drive down the cost of health insurance because more would participate.

Wording abortion as pro-choice just makes me cringe. Who's choice is it? What about the choice of the baby? Those who are pro-choice need to educate themselves on what truly happens during an abortion. Go to You Tube and search on abortion - you will get an awakening. If "choice" were the way of this country then isn't it someone's choice to kill another person, rob a bank, etc. We have laws for a reason. Non respect of a child in the womb is a very sad testimony of how low our society has sunk.
 
  • Thread starter
  • #37
pampchefrhondab said:
Actually a lot of the problems we have today are from past administrations. Clinton's administrations forced the banks to lend money more freely to everyone. This was to help stimulate the economy. It just delayed the problems which started when a lot of our jobs moved to Mexico and now China. Our jobs going to China began with Reagan. He moved to build power plants in China - where he made millions doing speaches after he was no longer president. Jobs moving to Mexico also started w/the NAFTA which began w/republicans but was signed by Clinton. I don't believe either side really knows how to run the economy and there is too much special interests.
I agree. Both parties have elements of blame but my point is McCain will continue the path Bush is on and Obama has new ideas.
I do believe we have a health care problem in this country; however, government being involved is not the way to go. Let's ask some of our Canada friends here. I think the government can help by giving tax breaks to companies who provide health care to their employees. This would help drive down the cost of health insurance because more would participate.
That's one of the things Obama has said he would do while McCain would tax us for the premiums.
Wording abortion as pro-choice just makes me cringe. Who's choice is it? What about the choice of the baby? Those who are pro-choice need to educate themselves on what truly happens during an abortion. Go to You Tube and search on abortion - you will get an awakening. If "choice" were the way of this country then isn't it someone's choice to kill another person, rob a bank, etc. We have laws for a reason. Non respect of a child in the womb is a very sad testimony of how low our society has sunk.

I am in no way "pro-choice" and I hate that word and other creative words too. I went to a women's seminar one time. It was very good with lots of workshops on various women's issues. At the end they stated that we had unanimously endorsed pro-choice as a women's health issue. HUH?? I did no such thing and was appauled and disgusted.

I am never pro-abortion. But I also do not want desperate girls dying or losing their chance to ever have a baby because of who they are forced to see if it's illegal - if it was illegal they wouldn't go for counseling because then they'd be on the radar. Sadly, that would mean MORE dangerous abortions. I want education to prevent pregnancy and to prevent abortion. Obama has stated that's what he wants. McCain's camp says they are pro-life but do you really think they will overturn Roe v Wade? Let's help these girls find alternatives.
 
  • #38
Our Canadian friends on this forum have said they love their health care. (Maybe it's time to ask them to post their stories?)

I'm concerned about the abortion issue ... HOWEVER ... past administrations had ample time to address this issue, and what has happened? NOTHING. Also ... I disagree with Palin using that as an issue when she ran for mayor ... HELLO? What can a city do about abortion? NOTHING. I wouldn't have voted for her if she was running for mayor in my home town ... because she was just using it for political gain.

As much as I disagree on abortion ... I can't see being pro-life AND anti-birth control. More use of birth control measures will reduce the number of abortions. And parents who want their children to be abstinent should be addressing the issue with them directly instead of asking the government to do it.

Lots of my views are based on religious reasons ... but we live in a pluralistic society ... how can we expect our laws to be based on our faith? The same freedom of religion gives me the right to worship in a charismatic church instead of a Episcopal one that many of our presidents came from.

I remember in 1992 when I was holding a sign that said, "Unemployed College Graduates for Clinton." The sign at the time said it all. Shortly thereafter, I was employed and using my degree ... was Clinton responsible? Hardly. But change had come to our country just the same.

16 years later, the company I'm working for is struggling ... as is every other one in my industry. All Bush's fault? Hardly. However ... change is needed badly.

Voting for Obama will not mean he'll be able to establish all his policies ... we just need CHANGE and not more of the same!
 
  • #40
Di_Can_Cook said:
Lots of my views are based on religious reasons ... but we live in a pluralistic society ... how can we expect our laws to be based on our faith? The same freedom of religion gives me the right to worship in a charismatic church instead of a Episcopal one that many of our presidents came from.

Most of our basic laws are based on religious beliefs:

Though shall not kill.
Though shall not steal.
Though shall not bear false witness.
 
  • Thread starter
  • #41
pampchefrhondab said:
Most of our basic laws are based on religious beliefs:

Though shall not kill.
Though shall not steal.
Though shall not bear false witness.

Which are based on the doctrine of all religions not just Christian ones. I think that was Di's point.
 
  • #42
Like I had in my first post - taxes will increase for everyone w/Obama's plan. Where does he plan on getting all the money for his programs? Maybe we could pay for health care with the social security money Obama voted to give to illegals.

I didn't mention it before, but a lot of our problems with the economy are due to illegals. They have drawn down the hourly rate of pay because they are willing to work for less (the don't have the same standard of living). The highest foreclosure rate in the country is in heavly populated areas of illegals. They go to our emergency rooms and get health care for free which we in turn have to pay for with higher bills. They can attend our schools and get free lunch and books. It stated right on the paperwork my kids brought home from school that you don't have to be a US citizen to get free school lunch. They come here and give birth so they can collect food stamps and wellfare for their children. This is a huge burden on our system which is already bankrupt. I'm all for immigration, but legally.
 
  • Thread starter
  • #43
pampchefrhondab said:
Like I had in my first post - taxes will increase for everyone w/Obama's plan. Where does he plan on getting all the money for his programs? Maybe we could pay for health care with the social security money Obama voted to give to illegals.

I didn't mention it before, but a lot of our problems with the economy are due to illegals. They have drawn down the hourly rate of pay because they are willing to work for less (the don't have the same standard of living). The highest foreclosure rate in the country is in heavly populated areas of illegals. They go to our emergency rooms and get health care for free which we in turn have to pay for with higher bills. They can attend our schools and get free lunch and books. It stated right on the paperwork my kids brought home from school that you don't have to be a US citizen to get free school lunch. They come here and give birth so they can collect food stamps and wellfare for their children. This is a huge burden on our system which is already bankrupt. I'm all for immigration, but legally.
No arguement there - about the illegal immigrant issue. It does have to be addressed but like all the other issues, eyes were off the ball and it got out of control. Now what do we do about all those families - just toss them out like last night's garbage? I don't have an answer and I haven't heard a solution from either side. I'll have to look that one up for myself. Thanks.


And, once again, read the plan that Obama offers about taxes. The richest 1% of the country pays way less tax than the resto of us do. By making the tax program more fair (raising tax on those making $250K or more) the money will be there. Independent groups have stated that middle class will pay less under Obama's plan than they do now or than under McCain's.

Of course, there's a good chance the bail out will likely make everyone pay more taxes no matter who is president.
 
  • #44
I personally don't think there is a good choice. I don't think either one is going to be the saviour for our country or economy. We in the US are in for a long hard time I'm afraid. Whichever party has the presidency if they don't have majority in the house or senate they won't be able to accomplish much. We have had that problem for the past 2 years.

I personally wish we would just go to a flat tax. I know the very wealthy will say (Rush Limbaugh) "The top 10% of income winners pay 50% of the tax" or something close to that. I always want to ask, "Yeah, but how much of their income - maybe they should be paying 75%!" It's all in the wording.

I'm for the flat tax because why should someone who has worked hard, taken risk to start a business, etc., have to pay a higher percentage then others. How is this not socialism if we take from one and give to another. We all have the same oppportuntiy to succeed in the US. Just like many have said w/PC - we all start with the same starter kit. Should I get the same commission as David Meanen (sp?)? No, I haven't worked my business as hard.

My husband and I make double the amount of money my sister and her husband do, but our "bring home" is only about 15% more because of the tax system. My husband and I both went to college and have worked very hard to get to the income level we are at - but it discourages you when you see others who don't pay any tax and actually get paid by the government to stay home. Not only that in the state of Indiana my sister's children will be able to attend a state college for free. My daughter received no aid for college this year.
 
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  • Thread starter
  • #45
pampchefrhondab said:
I personally don't think there is a good choice. I don't think either one is going to be the saviour for our country or economy. We in the US are in for a long hard time I'm afraid. Whichever party has the presidency if they don't have majority in the house or senate they won't be able to accomplish much. We have had that problem for the past 2 years.

I personally wish we would just go to a flat tax. I know the very wealthy will say (Rush Limbaugh) "The top 10% of income winners pay 50% of the tax" or something close to that. I always want to ask, "Yeah, but how much of their income - maybe they should be paying 75%!" It's all in the wording.

I totally agree about the tax. Flat tax makes sense to me too and I am tired of wealthy people complaining. Are they having trouble making their house payment - most of us have one house too by the way.

You are also right that neither will be the saviour and we ARE in for a long hard time - especially with this bail out. I do have to say though that it's not just the past 2 years that is a problem. The Republican control for the years before that did damage too.

It's both sides. They like to say it's the other guy but we all know that neither is perfect and they both lie to make their points and get elected. Why am I voting for Obama? Because I know that with McCain we will not see changes and Obama promises a new approach which we direly need.
 
  • #46
Just want to address some things that were posted by Rhonda B ( I am trying to be nice, so please don't take offense):

Rhonda wrote:

Like I had in my first post - taxes will increase for everyone w/Obama's plan.

Your taxes will increase if you make more than $250,000 per year

Where does he plan on getting all the money for his programs?

Money for all proposed items will come from the tax reconstruction -- those who will pay more in taxes (make over $250,000 a year and companies who are making billions in windfall profits).

Maybe we could pay for health care with the social security money Obama voted to give to illegals.

Can't figure out where that statement came from, could you find documentation to support that for me?

I didn't mention it before, but a lot of our problems with the economy are due to illegals.

Illegal what? Mexicans, Canadians, Italians, just what are you saying? I think that there should be a program to allow those who want to enter our country to do so just as YOUR relatives did when they came to this country. I am of Mexican decent, my father's family came here and served this country. My Grandfather, father, and uncles all 100% Mexican fought in US wars. My father was a disabled Veteran of WWII. They believed in this country, that they could raise families here and that their children would be better off. They fought for this country, and they loved it.

They have drawn down the hourly rate of pay because they are willing to work for less (the don't have the same standard of living).

Willing to work for less? WHAT? They are exploited, are overworked and underpaid by their "employers" who, by the way by the same people who should be taxed higher (those who make over $250,000 per year). They work for less so that they can send money back to their families back home to buy food, and so that their children can have an education. Does there need to be reform? YES, and NOW! -- but don't be mad at them for wanting a better life, just as your forefathers did. Be mad at those who employ them and exploit them. Be angry at the employers, not the workers.

The highest foreclosure rate in the country is in heavly populated areas of illegals.

Uh, need documentation on this one.....

Oh I could go on, but what's the use? Can you give me some documentation that shows where you are getting this information? I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that we need immigration reform, but come on...this is not a partisan problem, it's a US problem!

As I said in past threads, people post opinions and not facts. If it's your opinion, say it. If it's a fact, show where you got it. That's all I am asking. No where is anyone saying "in my opinion"...they just state it as if that makes it true. Help me on this one, please!
 
  • #47
jwpamp said:
Just want to address some things that were posted by Rhonda B ( I am trying to be nice, so please don't take offense):

Rhonda wrote:

Like I had in my first post - taxes will increase for everyone w/Obama's plan.

Your taxes will increase if you make more than $250,000 per year

Where does he plan on getting all the money for his programs?

Money for all proposed items will come from the tax reconstruction -- those who will pay more in taxes (make over $250,000 a year and companies who are making billions in windfall profits).

Maybe we could pay for health care with the social security money Obama voted to give to illegals.

Can't figure out where that statement came from, could you find documentation to support that for me?

See my first post.

I didn't mention it before, but a lot of our problems with the economy are due to illegals.

Illegal what? Mexicans, Canadians, Italians, just what are you saying? I think that there should be a program to allow those who want to enter our country to do so just as YOUR relatives did when they came to this country. I am of Mexican decent, my father's family came here and served this country. My Grandfather, father, and uncles all 100% Mexican fought in US wars. My father was a disabled Veteran of WWII. They believed in this country, that they could raise families here and that their children would be better off. They fought for this country, and they loved it.

I'm all for LEGAL immigartion. I said this in my original post.
They have drawn down the hourly rate of pay because they are willing to work for less (the don't have the same standard of living).

Willing to work for less? WHAT? They are exploited, are overworked and underpaid by their "employers" who, by the way by the same people who should be taxed higher (those who make over $250,000 per year). They work for less so that they can send money back to their families back home to buy food, and so that their children can have an education. Does there need to be reform? YES, and NOW! -- but don't be mad at them for wanting a better life, just as your forefathers did. Be mad at those who employ them and exploit them. Be angry at the employers, not the workers.

I agree the employers are as guilty as the illegal immigrants and they should be punished by the law.

The highest foreclosure rate in the country is in heavly populated areas of illegals.

Uh, need documentation on this one.....

http://rightvoices.com/2008/07/22/why-banking-on-illegals-isnt-such-a-good-idea-wachovia-bank-posts-89-billion-loss/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/04/AR2007100402253_pf.html


Oh I could go on, but what's the use? Can you give me some documentation that shows where you are getting this information? I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that we need immigration reform, but come on...this is not a partisan problem, it's a US problem!

I agree.

As I said in past threads, people post opinions and not facts. If it's your opinion, say it. If it's a fact, show where you got it. That's all I am asking. No where is anyone saying "in my opinion"...they just state it as if that makes it true. Help me on this one, please!

Not sure why my quotes were mixed w/yours above. Please see my responses.
 
  • #48
ShanaSmith said:
First off, I am in no way trying to stir the pot.
Debbie, I just wanted to comment on a couple of your points. Thank you for sharing your views in a calm and kind manner.

No one is For or Pro abortion. Obama simply believes that we as woman should have the right to decide. As a pro choice woman there is a big difference between those statements for me.

He is talking about raising taxes on corporate America, not the middle class. He is proposing tax cuts for 95% of the population, (making less than $250,000). When Warren Buffet came out and said that he doesn't pay enough taxes that says something to me. He said that he found out that his employees are paying more than he is and he doesn't think it is right, and either do I.

As far a sex Ed in schools, I have a hard time understanding how it is going to benefit our children by keeping them in the dark. Kids will still have sex, they just may not know the consequences. Of course it is our job as parents to teach then the values we want them to have, but I think the information is necessary too.

I am a little surprised I am even posting this since I stay away from all of the political posts for a reason. Again, I am just sharing my thoughts and views, not trying to stir the pot.

Hey Rhonda,

Thank you for noticing that civilized conversation, even about heated debates, is good for us. It gets us to think about all points of views.
And back to that hot topic of abortion, to say one is for a choice that is the same as being for it. You see if it is not outlawed then there is always a chance for it to happen legally and that is not good. You see I was there at the age of 19. I got pregnant AGAIN and wanted out.
Because it was a health concern? Nope
Because I was selfish and didn't want to deal with another baby. It would mess up MY body, MY life, MY finances, and MY ability to have fun! I didn't want to deal with it. People argue that they can't afford a baby or it should be there choice. But what about the innocent child that is now caught in this situation because of my sin. My fornication, and not that having an abortion when you are married is ok, it's still murder in my eyes.
If I would have aborted my 11 year old daughter, I would have missed out on the love and relationship we have. What a merciful God in heaven I serve. Despite my sin he made it to where I couldn't because I was too far along and would have had to go to another city to get it done. I didn't have the time or resources for that.
And for the arguement that some poor girl might resort to some illegal unsafe way to get an abortion is kind of silly. Ray Comfort said it best: "Oh the poor murderer can't find a person to kill her baby."
As harsh as that sounds, it's the same thing. Adoption is always an option! Selfishness is the main reason people want abortions. Not because of dire health issues. And sex education should come from the parents, not the schools. Are parents not doing what they are responsible for? Of course but that still doesn't make it ok. Parents also feed their kids way too much junk food. Should we send a school or government official into the home to monitor food intake? Parents also leave their kids alone after school with no adult supervision. And some parents spank their kids. Government and schools have no business trying to parent children. That is up to the parents. Saying kids are going to do it anyway, is sad but true. But I will never condone fornication or giving kids contraceptives. I might be old fashioned but also biblical when I say wait until you are married.
There is a cool DVD called Pamela's Prayer, I highly recommend it for young girls.

Debbie :)
 
  • #49
Thank you Debbie. I'm so glad you have your daughter today. Your story is so touching.
 
  • #50
Thanks for the post on the forclosure rate in Pr William County. I am sure that those figures rival the forclosure rate in other parts of the country from white homeowners as well.

As the article you linked to stated, 7-8% of foreclosures in that particular county were from Hispanic homeowners, and I see that 12% of the foreclosures were from the non-hispanic population as well.

Are you from there? I can't believe the average home prices! $400,000 - $700,000 -- I don't think these are homes that illegal immigrents are purchasing. The average home price in that county rose 150% since 2000.

In all actuality, the highest rates of foreclosures are not only in heavily Hispanic populated areas...according to Bloomberg's article on Sept 12th, Nevada, California, Arizona, Florida and New Jersey are the top 5 states. Most as a result of heavy new contruction and falsely elevated home prices.

Stockton, Calif had 1 in 50 homes forclosed and Fort Myers, Fla had 1 in 66.

This is just another product of lending institutions being deregulated and not having rules to follow when lending. I don't know if it is only related to Hispanics, though. I do know that people everywhere are undergoing forclosures at an amazing rate. Foreclosure rates are up 27% from a year ago.

Another part of deregulation is the banking industry, which was in a hey-day until last week, lending to anyone who would sign a paper....big business banking has been under scrutiny more than once in our history, as McCain well knows:

Keating Five - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also found the information about the Social Security vote, that stated Obama voted for the bill which would allow immagrent, non-documented workers would be allowed to claim their money from Social Security, to which they had paid into while working here using sometimes false documentation and social security numbers....which I don't agree with. However, Sen McCain did--

Sen. McCain Defended Giving Retroactive Social Security Benefits For Illegal Work:

Sen. McCain: "It Would Be Wrong To Deny Hardworking Men And Women Credit For All The Dollars They've Paid Into Social Security From Their Often Meager Wages." (Dena Bunis, "Guest-Worker Provision Survives," Orange County Register, 5/19/06)

And so McCain was for it as well....kind of like Sarah was FOR it before she was against it with the bridge thing.

Thank you for your response, Rhonda, you cleared that all up!
 

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