Only in California, LOL--what do I say?

Nanisu

Here's a recap to date of this issue:

September: Emma goes to Anna's show. Orders $50+ worth to stuff, books her own show for the 25th of October. Expresses an interest in signing up. Will meet with me in 3 days. 3 days later is very excited, wants to sign up the next week when her DH gets paid. Next week comes to a meeting with Mary Grant--very excited. Ready to sign up!

October 1: Hitch in the gitalong--Emma has no ss# because she is undocumented. Calls me to sign up and says, no problem, she will use Anna's ss#. I tell her that PC would not honor that and by the way if there is ever a liability issue she would be in deep trouble because PC would be insuring Anna, not her.

Called PC and they tell me to tell her to get an ITIN--basically a taxpayer # for undocumented workers so that they can pay taxes (to which, my first thought is SURE THEY WILL). She goes down to get the ITIN and she does qualify as a dependent of someone who has a SS# (her husband), but she must show his w-2 from last year. Which of course, he has none because he gets paid under the table.

October 12: She and Anna come to the consultant meeting. Anna says to me :Why can't I sign and she just do the shows? ". To which I respond, as before, PC can't let you do that because of liability issues, and I in all honesty can't do that either. She says ok. Emma still wants to do her PC show on the 25th to get free products.

October 13: I call Emma today to give her the ingredients. She brings up the W-7 issue again (which is the form you fill out to actually GET the ITIN), but says she can't get it because her husband didn't get a W-2 last year because he got paid under the table. At that point I tell her that I don't know what else to advise her, but I would show to do her her party on the
25th.

October 13 (just now) Emma just called me back and says "Anna is thinking of signing up". Yeah, I bet she is--she can barely walk. And then Emma asks me "If Anna signs up today, can she still do my party on the 25th instead of you? You were going to do it and let me submit it, so can we just let her sign up instead?" I ask Emma "well, how is Anna going to submit the orders? She doesn't have a computer? And how is Anna going to get to the shows? She doesn't drive a car anymore (diabetes)." Of course the answer is "well, I would drive her". Oh yeah, did I mention that Emma has no driver's license either?

Clearly Anna is going to sign up and let Emma do her shows--which I can't, in all conscience, be a part of. But how do I say this? The clincher? Emma wants to know "even though I am not signing up, can I still come to the meetings (i.e. can I get training for a job I don't intend to really have?).

Ok, what to do to end this?

Nancy

Jolie_Paradoxe

Ask her to find just one source of her husband's income, or have her call the place that issues ITIN and ask what to do in the event of no W-2. Anna's motivated, get her on your team!!!

Nanisu

Great theory, but no, ANNA is not motivated. Clearly Anna plans to sign up (Anna has the ss#, not Emma) so that Emma can do the shows. Sorry--maybe I didn't make that clear. Emma, who wants to be the consultant cannot get an ITIN because her husband has NEVER paid taxes--he's been a bartender over the years and always gotten paid under the table. Anna is just "lending" her SS# to Emma.

rennea

The whole situation stinks!! Just be honest to both ladies that you are not comfortable with breaking the law. Let Anna know that PC checks S.I.N numbers and that Anna will be responsible for paying the taxes. Who in their right mind would lend somebody their SIN number??

raebates

I'm with Rennea. I am not at all comfortable working with people who intentionally break the rules. I'd tell them both that. And, there is no way I'd be a part of helping someone to sign up in that situation.

raebates

Nanisu, I just got the following in an email. If either of those women want to do anything at all, here are ten ways to say no.

I'd love to, but...

I have to floss my cat.

I've dedicated my life to linguini.

I want to spend more time with my blender.

The President said he might drop in.

The man on television told me to say tuned.

I've been scheduled for a eyelash transplant.

I'm staying home to work on my cottage cheese sculpture.

It's my parakeet's bowling night.

It wouldn't be fair to the other Beautiful People.

I'm building a pig from a kit.


Hope it helps.

Jolie_Paradoxe

LOL Nanisu....I did understand, and meant to type Emma. Sorry. I do not mean for you to encourage or agree to Emma....sorry, both four letter names that end in an "a".

I still think you should have Emma check to see how she can get an ITIN number if her husband has no W2's. There must be a way, and if she is motivated to be a PC rep....she'll jump through the hoops and red tape to get that ITIN. But definitely do not sign Anna.

Nanisu

Ok: Update:

Anna called and "wants to become a consultant--I've come with Emma to the meetings and it looks like something I could do. I need to get out of the house". Now, in my heart I know that what will happen is that Anna will sign up, and Emma will do the shows. But I can't prove that, and I don't know how to say I know that's what they are doing without sounding accusitory. And I can't exactly accuse someone of potentially breaking the rules.

The show on the 25th would of course, then go to "Anna". I did volunteer to do Emma's first show for her if she signed, so of course now they are expecting me to do the same for "Anna"--basically coming and working for free. I would get my override.....what a dilemma. I told my dh I should just tell Anna that I would only sign her if I could come to her first 4 shows to see how she's doing....but once again, that sounds accusing. The whole thing is difficult, as a Christian I absolutey cannot expect God to bless my business if I sign someone under false pretenses, but I don't know how to get out of this without sounding judgemental.

Emma's DH now does NOT want her to get an ITIN. I bet--she's not legal and he's been getting paid under the table. No wonder he doesn't want her to get one--probably afraid of being caught.

Oh man, I hate this. I have not called Anna back, it's too late. Thank God I was at the gym when she called. Not sure how to get out of this.

AJPratt

It does sound pretty fishy.

Well, if it were me would I would just say that I always attend my consultants' first 4 shows and help out. Then, you can be there and see what is going on. Anna may just turn out to be a good consultant.

If you want to get out of this, just don't return their calls and just let it drop.

They haven't paid any taxes at all? No tax return?

Nanisu

They haven't paid any taxes at all? No tax return?

Umm....welcome to California--why do you think we'er in such a pickle, LOL. There are a LOT of "undocumented" aliens around (90 % of them hispanic) that feel free to use our welfare system to feed and clothe their children, and give them free lunches at school and free medical care and don't bother to pay a bit of taxes. Most of them have 2 or 3 different names and more than 1 social security #.

I emailed my exec to ask her what I should do--should I just sign this person and grit my teeth and let the chips fall where they may? And if I do go to her first 4 shows, I don't speak enough spanish to know what they are saying, so who's to say they are not talking about me or what a great deal this was? Plus, the last thing I want to do is go to 4 shows in my busiest month of the year to sit and listen to a group of people not speak my language for 3 hours.

But then again, if I make it clear to Anna that I, based on our conversations, kind of feel uncomfortable about this whole thing, but will help her start her business as long as SHE comes to training (not Emma) and SHE completes the requirements, not Emma, I might be ok. And there is the remotest of possibilities that Anna might, just might, do this. But I don't like feeling like I'm being played.

Sheila

Um, where on the w-7 form does it say that they need the w-2 of the husband? I can't find it!

My first instinct was that she's an illegal immigrant. But I've seen illegal immigrants file for ITIN numbers in the past, so it definitely wouldn't be the first time. The IRS is more interested in getting tax $ out of them than reporting them for being here illegally. (((insert eye roll here)))

Here's the answer that you can give them: "You are both really nice women and I like you a LOT, but not enough to go to jail for you or loose my consultant status with Pampered Chef."

NooraK

Oh Nancy, what a mess!

I think I've seen it posted before that HO will allow someone to sign without a SSN, but HO will then withhold 30% of their commission. Or something like that. I know it's a big number, but it might be worth checking into. It doesnt' hurt to ask.

The other thing is (and I don't really want to throw a wrench into your gears), the W-7 specifically states I know HO told you to advise her to get the ITIN, but technically that alone doesn't give her the right to work. I'm not sure how that applies in reference to operating your own business, but then again, that's a moot point if her DH doesn't want her to get an ITIN for the fear of being found out.

I think Sheila's answer is great.

Like you said, only in California!

Nanisu

Noora and Sheila: Yes, she is illegal--she admits that. Knew that from the start. I called HO, told them that she was "undocumented" (the politically correct term in CA for illegal) and they said they don't ask them their immigration status and as long as they have an ITIN they can sign up. On the w-7 it says in order for them to obtain a W-7 (which is the application to get the ITIN), they must file a tax return. When she told them they didn't file a tax return because her DH didn't work, they said she must file documentation that shows tax status, i.e. a w-2 or w-4. He has neither. So she is not applying for a ITIN.

My issues are threefold: 1) I have a real issue with helping an illegal immigrant get work. They are not supposed to be allowed to work. Yes, they all do, but, employers are not supposed to hire them. Of course, PC would not be her employer. Another day's discussion about that one. 2) They are so clearly bending the e,ployment rules to do this--technically I guess it's no big deal because if Anna signs up and does catalog shows and gives the $$ to Emma, that's her business. But it bugs me that, based on our conversations, it appears that although Anna would "sign up", Emma would be doing the job. But I can't prove that unless I go to her shows with her. I am not willing to do that--I'm busy enough. 3) Would I have any liability here, if something goes wrong? I mean, not legally, because all I am is the vessel to get her signed up and trained, but morally? I can't prove anything. The Bible says if you know something is wrong and you do it or allow it to happen it's sin. Lying is a sin. Cheating the system is a sin. But I can't prove anything.

Nanisu

The IRS is more interested in getting tax $ out of them than reporting them for being here illegally. (((insert eye roll here)))

When I called HO about this last week the lady in finance said "Well, the IRS allows this so that they can pay taxes and file a tax return. I laughed out loud and told her "yes, I'm sure that's high on their priority list. They broke the law to be here and get everything for free-- I'm SURE they are just lining up to pay taxes.". She laughed too and said "well, that's what I have to tell you--the ITIN is to pay taxes."

doughmama

WAIT! why would you go to her first 4 shows? now you are really working for free. If she needs training, she should be going to some of your shows, watching to see how it is done.

and in regard to actually signing her, that is a hard call. not sure what to advise.

NooraK

I still like this approach the best. In the end I would look at it this way: Do you believe this consultant (whether it be Anna or Emma who signs on the dotted line) is worth the stress it is putting on you. You haven't even signed her, and you're already worrying about things. Even if they jump through the hoops, you go to the first four shows to make sure Anna's doing them, train them, whatever, are you going to stop worrying? If you continue to worry, it's going to affect your attitude in the end, and it'll bleed into the rest of your life. Your family doesn't want you to do that. I don't want you to do that.

In the end, it's just one recruit. Sure, there's always the chance that this will be the next future NED, but what are the chances if she's undocumented? You can't stop her from going online and signing the contract using your information or your PWS, but you can choose how involved you will be in their business. If you set the boundaries at the beginning, there's nothing they can say in the future. And if you stick to your boundaries, and do only what you feel you are comfortable with (such as not siging them because you don't feel right about it, but they do it behind your back), you're not in the wrong.

If you want to talk about it more, just let me know. You've got my number. I'm even happy to just listen if that's what you need.

pcchefjane

At the training I took in Atlanta during the summer, Judy Joel said the new Recruit's Grand Opening is the RECRUITER'S show! You are not expected to do a show for "free".

I 100% agree that it is not right and to sign up Anna knowing she will not be doing the shows herself is wrong. You can explain that HO advised you that Emma must have an ITIN and that to sign her up feeling that Anna is not going to do the shows herself, you feel very uncomfortable. Are they both Hispanic?

Praying there will be a clear way from God on how to handle this!

crystalscookingnow

I take a different approach to my recruits' grand opening shows. I don't DO the show but I am there for them as moral support and to answer any questions that they may not know the answer to.

Nanisu

Well, that's what I would do, too--tell them I will be there, but not actually do the show. The bottom line is, I can't PROVE that Anna will not do the shows, and I am not willing to babysit them. So I think I will go ahead and talk to Anna today and let her know that I feel a little uncomfortable with the situation based on past questions (Can Emma just use Anna's SS#, no. Can Anna sign and Emma do the shows? no), but they understand that Pampered Chef requires that ANNA actually do the shows (maybe I'll find the part in the business guide about consultant actually doing the shows and photocopy it), that if there is an issue ANNA is responsible, and let it go at that. As far as Emma tagging along to cluster meetings with Anna, not much I can do about that. Maybe Emma will like this so much it will spur her on to actually GET an ITIN.

HO doesn't do anything about kitnappers, this is tatamount to about the same thing. I can't prove anything. And they are determined, so if I don't sign them someone else will.

Becca_in_MD

If Emma is the one doing the shows under Anna's SS#, all rewards go to Anna. This means any career promotions go to Anna. Trips go to Anna. Emma gets no recognition of her work. I've heard of people using their spouse's SS# to sign and then earn a trip. It's easier for the spouse to come along and pretend to be the real consultant or they say they do the shows together. But if Anna can barely walk, is she really going to travel with Emma and how happy will Emma's husband be about that? This, of course, is assuming they make a real go of the biz.

Nancy, you could bless and release and put them into the HO lead system, though they may land in YOUR inbox. This is a toughie!